Ep. 120: The Christmas Star

Adoration of the Magi

Adoration of the Magi

With Christmas just around the corner, we thought we’d investigate a mystery that has puzzled historians for hundreds of years. In the bible, the birth of Jesus was announced by a bright star in the sky that led the three wise men to his birthplace. What are some possible astronomical objects that might look like such a bright star in the sky? And were there any unusual events that happened at that time?

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    Fraser Cane: It’s very cold here on the west coast which is kind of normal for us in December. Usually it’s about more than freezing but we’ve had like really cold temperatures. My car got so cold it wouldn’t start.

    Dr. Pamela Gay: But from what I understand you’re working to recreate the whole White Christmas song.

    Fraser: Oh, exactly, a foot of snow everywhere and the kids have been playing out in the snow. It’s great. One other thing I thought you’d enjoy is that my 7 year-old daughter Chloe has become quite a big fan of AstronomyCast and has me play it for her every night before bed.

    She uses it to put herself to sleep actually. Anyway, but she loves it and actually now is like quite enthusiastically talking to her friends about space and astronomy. Thank you Pamela, for giving my daughter an astronomy education.

    Pamela: Well Chloe thanks a lot for listening and I hope that I don’t always put you to sleep. [Laughter]

    Fraser: We’re going to take a step away from our facts-based journey and go with a mystery that has puzzled historians for hundreds of years. In the Bible the birth of Jesus was announced by a bright star in the sky that led the three wise men to his birthplace.

    What are some possible astronomical objects that might look like such a bright star in the sky? Were there any unusual events that happened at that time? This is sort of a bit of an introduction.

    I’m actually planning on doing a show about a topic called archaeoastronomy which is where we sort of look back at what ancient astronomers knew about the night sky and the methods and tools they used to track objects and to predict eclipses and so on. And in many cases what some of those events that happened in the past can be used to sort of verify other historical events.

    It’s quite a fascinating subject and we’re going to do a whole show on that, but this is a bit of a preview. We’re going to look at one mystery in particular that a lot of people are familiar with. So Pamela, for those of us like me with absolutely no religious upbringing whatsoever, could you kind of explain the story of the Christmas star? I kind of know, I’ve seen the books and the pictures [Laughter] and I know some of the songs from school, but what is the story?

    Pamela: We’re going to try and restrict ourselves to what did the words say? We’re looking at the only Christmas Star evidence we have comes from the book of Matthew, chapter 2. It says starting right off the bat: “Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying where is he that is born King of the Jews for we have seen his star in the east and are coming to worship him. When Herod the King had heard these things he was troubled and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. And they said unto him: In Bethlehem of Judea for thus it is written by the prophet. And thou Bethlehem in the land of Juda art not the least among the princes of Juda, for out of thee shall come Governor that shall rule my people Israel. Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said: Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again so that I may come and worship him also. When they had heard the king, they departed and lo, the star which they saw in the east went before them till it came and stood over where the young child was.”

    Now I’d like to pull out some specific things out of that.

    Fraser: I was just going to say that, let’s sort of pull out the pieces of the puzzle then.

    Pamela: We start off with: we have three men coming from the east.

    Fraser: Now they see their Magi, who were the Magi?

    Pamela: These were basically astrologers, wise men. If we were looking in Native American culture you might think of them as the medicine men. These were people who would have been studying the sky.

    Fraser: Now they say from the east are we talking about Persia or China?

    Pamela: I’m pretty sure that it would have been one of the more Persian nations.

    Fraser: Right, okay and so they saw a star and this is the part that I don’t get. They see a star in the east but they’re coming from the east, right? So they would have seen the star in the west if it was pointing them in the right direction.

    Pamela: Yeah, so we already know that there is something with the facts-finding that we have to figure out how to sort out. How do you get Magi from the west to travel east? They’re now in Herod’s court and they see an object in the east and then follow it and it appears to then linger over Bethlehem.

    Now, the other thing in here is the reason that they’re directed to Bethlehem is because of a prophet, not because they went out and looked up at the star. So there’s this fascinating play-off going where you have the Magi coming and going, show us the king and Herod going what are you talking about? And he is calling all of his wise men in to say “what are they talking about?”

    So whatever it was that caused the Magi to travel potentially hundreds of miles wasn’t something that’s Herod’s court had even noticed. We’re looking for something that Jewish culture just didn’t notice. They weren’t dumb. They just weren’t astrologers in the same sense as the Persians.

    They looked up, they looked at the stars, they used a lunar calendar but they didn’t have the same astrological symbolism associated with whatever was going on in the sky. This might be a hint toward the answer.

    Fraser: Another key here is that Herod is alive and he was a real guy, right? He was the king of Israel. When did he die?

    Pamela: Well according to looking at coins and looking at records from other societies, we’re pretty sure he died right around 4 B.C. In general it is assumed that Jesus Christ would have been born in 4 B.C. or earlier.

    Fraser: Okay so we’ve got here people coming from the east, perhaps through some kind of prophecy and then standing in Jerusalem saw a star that was meaningful to them in the east from Jerusalem.

    Herod is alive and on the scene but for some reason Herod and his court of astrologers or astronomers didn’t see or recognize the significance of a bright object in the sky and was surprised I guess when it was pointed out to them.

    Pamela: Right and we’ve only got one record of this and it was written 50 to 70 years after it occurred.

    Fraser: What then would be some candidate objects?

    Pamela: The first place most people go is comets. There are a couple of different problems with this. There were comets along the right time-lines. There were comets recorded in both 5 B.C. and 4 B.C. by the Chinese who were amazing record-keepers and very good at keeping track of dates of things.

    We’ve been able to cross-correlate enough of the records against archaeological things in other parts of the world that we know that they were right when they made these observations.

    Fraser: So comet, now I’ve seen some comets. I saw Hale-Bopp and Hyakutake I guess about ten years ago. I’m not going to say that they looked like a star, that’s for sure. [Laughter]

    It was like a bright ball but a fairly diffuse ball and then the tail sort of way up above it – quite a long tail. It was quite spectacular, an amazing sight, right?

    Pamela: We’re kind of sorta rescued on the tail part at least because in 4 B.C. according to the Chinese records the comet actually didn’t have a tail. It’s just your happy normal comet fuzzy blob.

    Nonetheless, we have a couple of problems. If the time scale is right we have a comet without a tail, so maybe kind of a weird star. But, comets don’t really appear to hover so much. They were considered harbingers of death, doom and destruction and not kings that will rescue you.

    But there is this cultural disconnect of how do you take an object that is typically considered a harbinger of doom and have it cause you to get up, move hundreds of miles and go searching for a king?

    The other problem with these comets is Herod’s court would have noticed them. How is it that whatever it was caused Herod to ask when did this start? He has to ask the Magi because his court can’t answer that question.

    Fraser: It would have been the talk of the town that there was a bright comet in the sky. Everybody would have known about it, especially with the lack of light pollution back then.

    Pamela: Right. It’s easy to notice a faint comet only when you know where it is. So if there is this really amazing giant gorgeous comet everyone would know about it. While that type of giant gorgeous amazing comet might cause people to get up and go a few hundred miles by foot, camel and otherwise uncomfortable travel method, a kind of faint not very exciting comet that would be something an astronomer would notice.

    But not necessarily something Herod’s court would notice because they may not have been map keepers of things like comets. It’s probably not going to cause you to move hundreds of miles across the desert to go looking for a king.

    Fraser: Everyone would have known about it. It wouldn’t have come as any kind of surprise to anybody. Everyone would have known about it. Oh, yeah the comet, of course how could we not have known about a comet? Then plan B, what’s next?

    Pamela: The next thing that you see, especially in a lot of TV specials that take this on – and this is the time of year you start seeing these Christmas specials – is well maybe there was a supernova, a hyper nova, or a giant star that matches what every nativity scene has, something giant in the sky.

    Well, the problem with giant glorious wonderful supernova is why did King Herod’s court not notice it? We know that there was a supernova in 5 B.C. and it lasted for about 70 days while it was bright enough to be seen by eye.

    Fraser: How bright?

    Pamela: We don’t exactly have those records. So, you know something’s up. You know something’s new but the Chinese didn’t exactly use the modern magnitude system. The fact that it was visible for 70 days implies that it was probably about the brightest thing if not the brightest thing in the sky when it was at its brightest.

    We can see supernova on their way up and we can see them on their way down. You can imagine moving that light curve where often a supernova will only be visible by eye for maybe a couple of days on average. Take that entire light curve and take the part that’s normally only visible to the backyard astronomer and move it into the visible to the naked eye range. You suddenly get that bright point moving to the point where it is hanging out in brightness with Venus, Sirius.

    So, all of a sudden you have this bright star appearing in the sky that wasn’t there before. It’s a death star – that’s where the word nova (new) star comes in and it was hanging out for 70 days which would give the Magi time to do their traveling, talk to the king and go try and find in Bethlehem the baby Jesus.

    It seems like a pretty good candidate but these are people who like you said before live someplace without a lot of light pollution. They’re going to be aware of the constellations just like we’re aware of the brightest constellations.

    If a giant really bright star suddenly appeared in Orion, suddenly appeared in Cassiopeia, suddenly appeared in the Big Dipper, we’d notice the change in the pattern. Even the peasants would be out at the watering pond going: “Hey, Jebediah, did you see that object last night?”

    But we don’t see that. Herod’s court didn’t know about this new object. So if it was this amazingly bright absolutely fantastic supernova, why didn’t they notice it?

    Fraser: Do we know where the supernova was seen, like what constellation in the sky?

    Pamela: I haven’t been able to find those records. A lot of these things are tied into journals that you get people discussing translations and the consolation that it may be in the original Chinese records.

    But as near as I can find from my own search, I can’t find what constellation it was listed in. It would be something that would have been visible in that part of the world because we are talking the northern hemisphere in both cases.

    Fraser: I guess maybe you would want it to be something that was on the Zodiac, right? It would be something that would maybe sort of rise up and be visible on the horizon at some point in the early evening?

    Pamela: This is where you have to wonder when they say in the east how much – lots of things are in the east. Living here in St. Louis, I can refer equally to Florida being in the east and to Nova Scotia being in the east. Both of them are east of me.

    So saying that something is east doesn’t necessarily mean due east. I’m willing to give them a little bit of latitude with that. East also depends on time of day because no matter what you’re looking at in the sky, it’s going to move. It’s going to rise at a given time and it’s going to set at a given time.

    Here when you look at the passage that says: “When they had heard the king they departed and lo the star which they saw in the east went before them till it came and stood over where the young child was.”

    That actually reads very much like an astrologer, not an astronomer. But an astrologer scribing retrograde motion where they say something appears in the east moves forward continuing to progress eastward along the sky moving past stars as it goes further and further east then it came and stood over.

    As an object is about to go to retrograde motion, it appears to pause in its passage against the background stars.

    Fraser: Okay so let’s have another candidate then. What about just like a really bright star that we know of like Sirius?

    Pamela: Well, here you have to go with the – they’re not dumb based assumption. These are people that have likely achieved the highest levels of education in terms of what’s in the sky among their people. These are perhaps the people who help determine when the harvest is. They help determine when the high holidays are. They help determine the solstice and equinox dates.

    Bright stars come on an orderly basis once a year. We know when they’re coming and we know when they’re going.

    So, saying that it was just a bright star, well the bright star is always going to be there and there isn’t a king born every single year. If you start with the base assumption of they’re not dumb, just a regular everyday star just doesn’t cut it with the story.

    Fraser: If these guys were astrologers they would know Sirius like the back of their hand and wouldn’t think of any significance about it being in the sky.

    Pamela: Yeah, and the whole long journey through the desert thing, that’s a pretty good potential barrier to get over. It needs to be something unusual that had meaning to them that would cause them to move to Jerusalem.

    Fraser: Okay so we’re going to throw that one out for now. [Laughter] What other possible candidates have we got?

    Pamela: The next thing that astronomers started doing was well we have planetarium software, let’s go back and figure out where the planets were. Did the planets do anything interesting? Did they move past any particular stars? What constellations were they moving through? And more importantly, did they move close to one another?

    It was actually Kepler who first got in on the act. He goofed some of the details in the process. Kepler noticed that a bunch of the stars appeared to come close together and he said “Nova, this will cause a nova!” He was wrong. Having many planets appear together in the sky does not cause anything insane like nova to occur.

    In more modern times, we’ve had lots of people going through and looking at what are the different patterns the different planets form on the sky. In looking particularly at what planets come together it was found that in 3 B.C. on June 12th Venus and Saturn came fairly close together.

    We had then Venus and Jupiter coming very close together on August 12th. Jupiter in particular was moving through the constellation Leo and during this period of time. Jupiter actually traced a really interesting path on the sky where starting in September, 3 B.C., and continuing on for basically the next year, Jupiter appeared to pass by the star regulus which is associated with king Leonus itself.

    Then it went into retrograde motion, reversed itself and passed back out again. So, it moves forward into Leo, passes regulus, pauses and then moves backwards and then moves forward. So you have the planet that is associated with kings is all but circling the star associated with kings and doing it in a constellation that is associated with the Jews.

    It’s doing this while passing very close to Saturn and while passing very close to Venus. In particular when Venus and Jupiter were in the constellation Leo, they got so close together that they appeared as a single object. So you have two of the brightest of the planets

    Fraser: Wow.

    Pamela: essentially doing the “I’m going to look like the Nativity Star, close together, be very bright.” Now this does occur in the summer but the one piece of information we don’t really have is what time of year was Jesus born?

    The closest we can get is passages that say the shepherds were then with their sheep in the fields and it gets cold in the winter.

    Fraser: Yeah, I’ve been in Jerusalem in the winter and it’s not warm. There was snow.

    Pamela: Right, so it almost makes more sense if this story would have happened during more temperate times of the year.

    Having this conjunction, this fairly rare alignment of the planets happen during the summer actually makes sense even in the context of the shepherds and the sheep.

    Fraser: Okay, so when exactly does this conjunction happen?

    Pamela: This is where we start running into problems. This is happening in 3 B.C. and 2 B.C. which is more recent than 4 B.C. because B.C. numbers have the problem of running backwards.

    Fraser: So it’s 2 and 3 B.C. so it was like, what did you say, it was August 12th?

    Pamela: Yeah.

    Fraser: In 3 B.C. Now we’ve made a mention before, get stellarium software. It’s a free planetarium software. It lets you define your position on the globe and lets you sort of define your time. You can just play the motion of the objects in the sky backwards and forwards. So, take a look and you can kind of see how close the planets were at those times.

    I’m sure it would be amazing. I mean when you see Venus at its brightest, it’s astonishing. When you see Jupiter it is bright on its own. I just can’t imagine how bright the two would look really close together.

    But that would only be for like a day, right? You’d look at them, they’re close together and then a day later they’re starting to get far apart again.

    Pamela: Right and you can actually just watch them come together and pass apart. As this is happening you have Venus at about minus 4-magnitude, Jupiter at basically minus 2-magnitude.

    That’s the type of event that as you see these planets getting closer and closer together in the sky and then essentially passing on top of each other you can almost imagine Magi getting up and going: “Ooh, Leo. That’s the constellation that rules the Jews. We have Jupiter that rules kings. Let’s get up and go to Jerusalem and find out what’s on. This is cool.”

    Fraser: Are there any problems with this scenario?

    Pamela: Yeah, Herod’s dead.

    Fraser: Herod’s dead! [Laughter] So on the date when this conjunction happens Herod has already died.

    Pamela: Right, so either we don’t quite know when Herod was alive; we think we do because it’s kind of stamped on coins.

    Fraser: Right, that one is pretty certain.

    Pamela: Either the whole time scale is screwed up, we lost two or three years in the past 2,000 or we have the wrong king. Again, Matthew was written 50 to 70 years after Jesus died.

    Fraser: He just like had the wrong guy? He thought he was talking Herod but actually it was, I don’t know.

    Pamela: Yeah. So we’ve just got the wrong king. So here we only have one version of this particular story, or we have to eliminate our other facts-based possibility to answering this mystery. Here’s where we end up face-to-face with what all archaeoastronomers are faced with.

    We’re assuming we understand the culture of the Magi. We don’t have a lot of information to go on. We are assuming that when they say Herod’s priests and scribes hadn’t noticed what was going on in the sky that that’s true and not just Herod hadn’t noticed what was going on in the sky and the priests and Magi played dumb because they didn’t want to say that the knew something their king hadn’t noticed.

    Something somewhere doesn’t match and we can’t go back and stand in Herod’s court and go: “Yes you are actually Herod. Scribes you’re dumb or you’re lying. Magi, we got your culture wrong. It was actually a comet in a constellation that made no sense.”

    Somewhere in here there may be truth but all we have is the facts and the facts we have is there was a pretty bright supernova. The facts we have is there were comets in the right period of time. The facts we have is there was this really neat dance of the planets.

    It would just be so cool to see first Jupiter and Saturn being close together; to see Jupiter essentially circling Regulus. And to see Jupiter and Venus coming together away from the Sun such that they’re basically touching. Now Jupiter and Venus do get together in a hundred, couple hundred year timescale, but not this close.

    Sometimes when it happens, it happens close to the Sun. Back in 2000 these two planets appeared very close together but it was right next to the Sun and we wouldn’t have been able to see it if it wasn’t for the SOHO Satellite.

    The answer that makes the most sense is we have the wrong king. The other answers that make less sense would imply that something got written down wrong. It leaves us with no satisfying answer.

    It’s a mystery and maybe some day we’ll turn up more documents and records. Maybe we’ll find some other society that can confirm or deny the facts.

    Fraser: So until then we’ll just wait for more facts.

    Pamela: That’s as far as we can go today. But archaeoastronomy is a really cool thing to try and follow. And just that we can look to Chinese records to confirm things the Mayans recorded, we can look to things Mayans recorded to try and make sense out of Native American ruins.

    We do know that people were looking at the sky and making accurate notations for thousands of years. Even though they didn’t know they were doing science, they were perhaps at least citizen scientists allowing us to know that supernova have been going off and now we can look to see what we can learn about them.

    Fraser: On that note, I hope you have a happy, Merry Christmas, Pamela.

    24 Responses to Ep. 120: The Christmas Star

    1. Sticks December 25, 2008 at 2:25 am #

      Just to be picky the Bible never said there were three wise men, but mentioned three gifts

    2. Evolving Squid December 25, 2008 at 2:25 pm #

      It did, in matthew 2:1 say there were wise men, however.

    3. Bridh Hancock December 27, 2008 at 5:03 am #

      The exact when and where are good to know. A few years ago a woman worked back and found the astronomical coincidences at the time around northern spring equinox of 4BC were extremely significant. She stopped 6 months too soon. Now we hear of the ‘star’ being two planets conjunctioning. But Christmas was 33 1/2 years prior to his death, at the northern autumn equinox of 4BC. What those Iranian astronamer/intellectuals were following, I would like to know. Cosmographies were not as we would cast them now. There were some flat-earthers then (as now), but theirs was not a universe of galaxies or of an identifiable Singularity or of devolution and entropy.

    4. chet December 27, 2008 at 5:20 am #

      It’s a fiction! A “star” was put in by Matthew because kings or emperors or pharoahs were suppose to be born under a “star”. “Matthew” also took the “star” from the Hebrew Torah for this gospel.
      There was no such event. The whole “born in the manger” is also a religious fiction/myth, too.

    5. chet December 27, 2008 at 8:45 am #

      Spelling error: pharaohs; not “pharoahs”.
      If you read “Matthew” and “Luke”, the painting “Adoration of the Magi” fictionally combines the two gospels just as most “manger scenes” do; and in “Charlie Brown’s Christmas”. The “magi” (# unknown) visit with “Mary and Jesus” in a room at an Inn” w/o Joseph.

    6. Ken December 27, 2008 at 10:00 am #

      There are still claims based on a miscopying of text that Herod’s death was in 2 instead of 4 BC which you don’t mention at all. “Don’t quite know” is a bit weak for dismissing the 2 BC date.
      There was no supernova in 5 BC; it was a nova in MAR/APR 5BC that Chinese astronomers saw and recorded.
      The only supernovae at this time were in 134 BC & 173 AD clearly outside the time of Christ’s birth.
      The travel direction from Persia was west, not east, as reversed in the podcast, but from Jerusalem to Bethlehem was nearly due south which was stated as an indicator for the wisemen, not just the Scriptures as stated.
      Confusion of planets with stars in discussing Kepler was unfortunate.
      Snow is extremely unusual in Bethlehem, so timing cannot be inferred from that.

    7. Eran December 29, 2008 at 5:41 pm #

      This episode was a great disappointment, for the very first time. It reminded me of the attempts to explain “how” astrology works, when it hasn’t been established that it actually works. I know you said it was not a facts show, but you were looking for facts to match a story a lot of people believe in unquestioningly, so you could do much better in terms of ensuring it is treated as a fun exercise in myth-management.
      Starting a show with a reading from the bible, not acknowledging that the story is most likely a myth (if Jesus existed – that’s a big if – then he was born in Nazareth and his birth was moved to Bethlehem to accommodate an old testament prophesy) and then ignoring all the obvious difficulties with the story, such as “how would a celestial object of any brightness lead anyone to a specific city, let alone a specific manger?” is unbecoming of your show. I hope you continue to stick to facts.

    8. Ron Jones December 30, 2008 at 4:28 pm #

      There are so many contradictions and so many times that the scientific facts have to be stretched and liberally interpreted in dealing with all of the stories of Jesus, that when you come to terms with the reality that it is all a myth then it suddenly all makes sense. When you realize that it is, not really a lie as such, but just a bunch of made up stories, then it all falls into place. You don’t have to come up with explanations about double planet alignments or super nova’s, or wise men going east to follow a star in the west or any of that stuff. You don’t have to explain about Herold being dead before Jesus was born or come up with reasons why there is only one story of the star and the other stories of Jesus conflict with each other. You don’t have to ignore the fact that God allowed errors and contradictions to be in “His” word. It all makes sense when you finally admit that it is all a bunch of made up stories.
      In spite of the fact that it is fiction and something that you should not believe in, in the religious sense, the stories are, none the less, a wonderful window into life at the time and occasionally have a moral lesson that we could all benefit from.

    9. David Biddix December 31, 2008 at 3:43 am #

      Thank you for such a wonderful treatment of this grand mystery. I too share an interest in archaeo-astronomy, and this was an excellent introduction to the subject. My wife was just mentioning the week before Christmas that she would like to hear an Astronomycast dealing with the star of Bethlehem. I think you both treated the facts fairly, and I and my family thank you for this program.

    10. shlogblog January 1, 2009 at 9:34 am #

      Boo! Hiss! What an embarrassing episode- obviously Pamela’s Christian faith finally overwhelmed her good sense. Shame on you Astronomy Cast! What’s next- an episode about the cosmological significance of Genesis??? Stick to the frikkin’ facts kids!

    11. David Fisher January 1, 2009 at 9:24 pm #

      It is also noteworthy (if I’m not repeating) that the Magi arrived when Jesus was about two years old.
      And although this is not the place to debate theology, let all of us not be blinded by our own personal beliefs. One tends to dismiss something as myth if one has already concluded that it is so. But taking the story, at face value, religious connotations not withstanding, should be given consideration -as all ancient texts should be taken. If we don’t, how do we learn anything of the ancient past?
      The Bible is the most detailed ancient collections of books ever written and it would behoove us to take it seriously even from a scientific standpoint. We don’t have to all trust it as THE WORD OF GOD, but it should not be dismissed due to it’s historical, cultural, literary, and sociological perspectives. That includes the Christmas star, or whatever it is.
      I for one love mystery. And what is science, but uncovering mystery?
      I for one enjoyed the show and look forward to more archeo-astronomy.

    12. David Buck January 2, 2009 at 1:17 pm #

      You blew it on this one, folks. As much as I love your podcast in general, this was just a pathetic attempt to explain a story that likely never happened at all. The only gospel to mention a star is Matthew. The account of Luke is extremely different from Matthew’s but both accounts are merged in the modern story – there are both shepards and wise men. The truth is, the writers of the gospels knew nothing about the birth of Jesus so they made it up to match prophecy and to make it more miraculous than it was. Trying to find the astronomical source of the Christmas star is like asking which planet the Blue Fairy came from. It doesn’t belong in a podcast like this that normally has such high standards. In all your other shows, you focus so much on the “facts” and “what we know and how we know it” but in this case that “what you know” comes from the writings of one biased person a hundred years after the event. Your scientific instincts should have been to dismiss this as myth, not promote it like this. I’m very disappointed.

    13. donrobert pena January 4, 2009 at 1:51 am #

      i too feel this episode was a big let down. all the episodes i’ve listened to have been based on facts, but this one was just none stop conjecture on something and someone that can never be proven to happened/existed and only serves to promote religion.

    14. Michael January 4, 2009 at 7:29 am #

      Loved this one … had the whole family listen to it on the way to see the grandparents after Christmas. Even the most unlikely stories in myth and legend usually turn out to have some historical basis. For centuries historians thought the Greek siege of Troy was fiction, until Schliemann found the archaeological site. The Flood story in genesis was dismissed by almost all serious ‘scientists’ as a metaphor and children’s tale until the identification of the Sumerian flood tablet in the 1870s and Ballard’s Black Sea exploration work in the 1990s. I encourage those who want to dismiss the ‘Christmas star’ as pure myth to take a step back from their preconceived beliefs and admit archealogy and history are sciences in their own right too.

    15. Jordan January 5, 2009 at 8:07 am #

      Geez, what is everyone’s problem with this episode? I’m not exactly Christian myself, but I found this podcast to be very interesting nonetheless. Some of you need to be a little more open-minded. So what if they had a little bit of conjecture in this episode? Sometimes its nice to just look at something that can’t be proven and wonder about ways that it may or may not have happened.

    16. Roberto January 6, 2009 at 7:10 am #

      Thank you, this was an excellent show. Really fun. You guys showed a lot of guts putting this one together because you must have known the response you’d get from the new Science Inquisition. “They” can’t allow any thought that is outside of their narrow scope of experience. I believe you all went above and beyond when you were clear that this was not a show based on science. Maybe they didn’t hear that part. This episode has further enriched my enjoyment of Astronomy Cast. Big fan since the original Slacker days! Robert

    17. Mark January 6, 2009 at 7:53 am #

      Wow, there are some bitter atheists out there.

      This was a fun episode evaluating possible candidates for a story with some rather vague astronomical references. The hypothesis was clearly “let’s assume the story is true, now what could the ‘star’ be?” – perfectly reasonable scientific method. There’d be no point doing the episode assuming the story was false, as then there’d be no star to investigate.

      Astronomycast is not the place to discuss the validity of the story as a whole, and the fact that Pamela is Christian (as am I) has nothing to do with it. It’s an astronomy show at Christmas, and one of the key symbols for Christmas is the star, so it makes perfect sense to see what could be going on. It’s not trying to prove or disprove the Christmas story – you’ll have to make your own minds up on that one.

      Of course, if the Christmas story is true, and the rest of the Christian message is also true, the star could have been supernatural and therefore not predictable from backwards extrapolation of orbits and precession.

      I found the episode extremely interesting, particularly the Jupiter / Regulus / Leo thing. Thanks for putting this one together guys!

    18. slashnull January 6, 2009 at 2:56 pm #

      I was a bit worried about this episode having read a few of the comments before listening to it. As someone with as much an interest in things historical and theological as astronomical I was worried you guys might make a few of the goofs that this subject always brings. Listening to the show set me at ease, I have no problems with assuming an ancient text might be true and looking for explanations which might help make sense of it. As many people have noted above it’s probably just a story and there is no real need to find a star, but that shouldn’t stop interesting shows like this one. As Mark (#17) said the bit about Jupiter/Regulus/Leo was really good, and I liked Pamela’s list of facts at the end.

      I look forward to the episode about archeoastronomy!

      Merry Little Christmas!

    19. Catherine T January 8, 2009 at 1:28 am #

      I find it faintly ammusing when people think treating theological or ancient texts is a mark of being a good scientist. It’s also incorrect to assume that religious beliefs put some sort of limitation on a person’s ability to conduct or communicate good science.

      The “Star of Bethlehem” is a wonderous story and, whether true or not or whether we are believers or not, it invites us to consider some of the amazing sights we can see.

      As an astronomy teacher myself, I think it is especially important to encourage people to take time just to sit back and wonder at all that is fantastic about the Universe, especially those things that we don’t yet or may never understand. Studying astronomy is a journey and everyones experiences and specialities will be different, but it is certainly a humbling and awe-inspiring one for most. There is little room for arrogance because it limits our vision.

    20. Uranus January 8, 2009 at 6:57 am #

      Dear Astrology-cast,

      If i told you that the sun shone outa my a##s- would you do a show on that too?
      Please send my love to Santa and his son Jesus.

      Keep up the good work!
      U

    21. craigr January 11, 2009 at 9:41 am #

      I’m with those like Jordan and Mark. Pamela and Fraser did a good job looking at a long-standing story, and tried to see what does and does not stand the light of day, and , most importantly, what can be LEARNED. Shame on you, you bitter closed minded finger pointing types. Without flexibility and intellectual curiosity, we become no better the a medieval Inquisitioner, or Conservative Christians (more or less the same). And (though I disapprove of starting a sentence with ‘and’) please let us not fall prey to the way too common habit of being overly snarky in email communications. Remember we are addressing friends and kindred spirits here, not International Terrorists.

    22. Supernatural Season September 20, 2009 at 12:16 pm #

      I like to watch Supernatural and also Lost, becous the sexy cast lol. BTW found this site on google, searched for some TV Show Plot.

    23. Mike December 7, 2009 at 5:02 pm #

      An informative conversation by Pamel and Fraser and obviously one that caught a lot of attention. The Bible is a faith document and on that basis obviously some dismiss it with out further thought. That is the opposite of an inquiring scientific mindset. Such a closed-minded approach misses the truth that the Bible is also one of the most important historical documents in ancient history. Archeology continues to support the events that are recorded there. As for the star, no one is trying to document a case for Christianity in this article. It is simply interesting questions we can ask from the accounts that are given. We obviously are not given a detailed chronology of ancient envets of the birth of Christ. That is not their purpose. The question is interesting for some of us trying to correlate the biblical record with known events. A worthwhile interview!

    24. KPatterson July 18, 2012 at 10:36 pm #

      This is fascinating and had there been a star in the sky at that time I think Pamela did a great job of explaining what it could have been and what they would have thinking about it.

      However, this is the one place where Karen’s religion gets in the way: she didn’t consider that there was never a “star” or other abnormally bright object at all; that the so-called Christmas star was just a myth that was later attached someone who may or may not have existed. (And if he did exist he was just an outspoken mortal who managed to get the attention of the Romans and was crucified for his troubles. Nothing supernatural or divine about him.)

      It’s no different than the bright star, double-rainbow and talking iceberg that the North Koreans claim to have hailed Kim Jong-Il’s birth.

      Otherwise, great podcast.

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