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	<title>Astronomy Cast &#187; Cosmology</title>
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	<itunes:summary>Take a facts-based journey through the universe.</itunes:summary>
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		<title>Ep. 179: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[Today we tackle more thrilling mysteries of the Universe. And by tackle, we mean, acknowledge their puzzling existence. Some mysteries will be solved shortly, others will likely trouble astronomers for centuries to come. Join us for part 2. Download Ep. 179: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2 Jump to Shownotes Jump to Transcript or Download [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/04/ep-179-mysteries-of-the-universe-part-2/' addthis:title='Ep. 179: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2 '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today we tackle more thrilling mysteries of the Universe. And by tackle, we mean, acknowledge their puzzling existence. Some mysteries will be solved shortly, others will likely trouble astronomers for centuries to come. Join us for part 2.</p>
<p><span id="more-1334"></span></p>
<table style="height: 52px;" width="391">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>
<li><strong> </strong><a href="http://traffic.libsyn.com/astronomycast/AstroCast-100301.mp3"><strong>Download Ep. 179: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2</strong></a></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or <strong><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/transcripts/AstroCast-100301_transcript.pdf">Download</a></strong></li>
<p></p>
<div id="shownotes">
<a name="shownotes"><br />
<h3>Show Notes</h3>
<p></a></p>
<p><strong>5.  Do Galaxies Form Bottom Up or Top Down?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomynotes.com/galaxy/s10.htm">Galaxy Origins</a> &#8212; Nick Strobel</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/galaxies/galform.html">Galaxy Formation</a> &#8212; Bill Keel</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/teachers/galaxies/imagine/page22.html">The Hidden Lives of Galaxies</a> &#8212; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/">James Webb Space Telescope</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>6.  Which came first &#8212; the supermassive black hole or the galaxy?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/23357/which-comes-first-galaxy-or-black-hole/">Which Comes First: Galaxies or Black Holes? -</a>- Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&amp;id=5042">Bulges Affect Galaxy formation</a> &#8212; Astronomy</li>
<li><a href="http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/cenbulge.htm">The Milky Way&#8217;s Central Bulge</a> &#8212; Sol Station</li>
<li><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/kt413g483331u618/">Abstract: On the Bulge-to-disk-size ratio</a> &#8212; Springerlink</li>
<li><a href="http://www.alma.nrao.edu/">ALMA</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>7.  Where are the green galaxies?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/Discoveries/2009/0727/new-class-of-galaxies-small-green-and-bursting-with-new-stars">New Class of Galaxies:  Small, Green and bursting with New Stars </a>&#8211; Christian Science Monitor</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/36028/galaxy-zoo-discovers-new-group-of-galaxies-green-peas/">Galaxy Zoo Discoveres New Group of Galaxies: Green Peas </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q72.html">Why aren&#8217;t there any green stars? -</a>- Astronomy Cafe</li>
<li><a href="http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/cosmic_classroom/ask_astronomer/video/">Video: Why Aren&#8217;t there Any Green Stars? </a>&#8211; Cool Cosmos</li>
<li><a href="http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/R/Ram+Pressure+Stripping">Ram Pressure Stripping</a> &#8212; Swinburne Astronomy</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>8.  What is Dark Matter?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/dark_matter.html">Dark Matter </a>&#8211; Imagine the Universe</li>
<li><a href="http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/">Dark Energy, Dark Matter</a> &#8212; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJN2X3NrQAE">NOVA:  The Dark Matter Mystery (video)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/20771/are-we-close-to-finding-dark-matter/">Are We Close to Finding Dark Matter? </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/dark_matter_proven.html">The Bullet Cluster and Dark Matter </a>&#8211; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://cosmos.astro.caltech.edu/">Cosmic Evolution Survey (COSMOS)</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>9.  Where are the Dark Matter Galaxies?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/11273/dark-matter-galaxy/">Dark Matter Galaxy?</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/13091/greedy-supermassive-black-holes-dislike-dark-matter/">Greedy Supermassive Black Holes Dislike Dark Matter </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/galaxies/lensing.html">Gravitational Lensing</a> &#8212; UTK</li>
</ul>
<div id="transcript">
<a name="transcript"><br />
<h3>Transcript: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2</h3>
<p></a><strong><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/transcripts/AstroCast-100301_transcript.pdf">Download the transcript</a></strong></p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Astronomy Cast Episode 179 for Monday March 1, 2010, Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. My name is Fraser Cain, I&#8217;m the publisher of Universe Today, and with me is Dr. Pamela Gay, a professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Hi Pamela, how&#8217;s it going?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It&#8217;s going well. How are you doing, Fraser?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Good! It&#8217;s actually exactly the same as I was for the last show because we&#8217;re recording 5 minutes after we finished recording the previous show, so whatever answers I gave you last time&#8211;they still stand.  All right&#8230; so today we tackle more thrilling mysteries of the universe. And by tackle, we mean acknowledge their puzzling existence. Some mysteries will be solved shortly, others will likely trouble astronomers for centuries to come. Join us for part two. Alright, so this time we&#8217;re going to focus on some massive problems&#8211;galaxies. We talked about the Milky Way, but now we&#8217;re going to talk in general about some galaxies and their formation. So here&#8217;s the first question&#8211;do galaxies form bottom-up or top-down? You threw that question into the mix, so I have no idea what you&#8217;re talking about. So what is your question?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  So there&#8217;s two basic ideas on how galaxies originate. One is you take giant clump of gas and dust and other material and let it collapse and you end up forming giant galaxy. The other is you take small spud&#8230; form small gas cloud&#8230; take another small spud&#8230; form small gas cloud&#8230; start throwing these things together&#8230; they merge&#8230; form something slightly bigger. Throw something else in there&#8230; it merges&#8230; gets slightly bigger. So the idea is either you have galaxies form all at once from the collapse of a giant cloud of gas, dust, and stuff, or you have bunches of little tiny things that collapse out gravitationally, and then together build bigger and bigger objects.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Can I take a stab at it?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah!
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  I think bottom up&#8230; let me tell you why. When you get really big spiral galaxies colliding together, they&#8217;re coming at bizarre angles and you get these great big elliptical galaxies. So, if you collide two beautiful spirals together, you get a mush. And so if all the little galaxies were coming together, you would just get mush on top of mush on top of mush. So you would end up with just elliptical galaxies everywhere you looked. A spiral galaxy seems to indicate that one big gas cloud is all just coming together and turning into a spiral. That&#8217;s my theory.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Now you&#8217;d think that. And there&#8217;s a lot of great papers out there saying that, but then when we look out there we can actually start to figure out how you make spiral galaxies. So, we can do both&#8230; and this is the problem.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  &#8216;Course somebody would have thought of that, Fraser&#8230; duh.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, yeah&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right. So you&#8217;re saying that&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  You throw things together just right, and you get a disk. Now we&#8217;re still trying to figure out where the heck spiral arms come from. These spiral density wave things are kind of crazy. But they work! And they generate spiral arms&#8230; we just don&#8217;t know where they come from. So, we know how to make disks&#8230; you just throw things together like pizza pie and spin them and they flatten nicely.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, like a solar system&#8230; like the way our solar system formed from one gas cloud.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, you can also do it by throwing things together&#8230; small clumps&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right. But it has to be small clumps that all came in on a common center of rotation, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, it depends on the rate at which they come in. Things can get absorbed in. Things can shake themselves out and end up flattening the disk. This is where you have spirals that have warped structure but only for a little while. They ate something that was a little too big and it shook them up. But, over time they flatten themselves back out.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Ok, so then the thinking then is you take a galaxy, and as long as it has enough time to spin, it&#8217;s going to spin itself back into a nice roughly circular shape. It would be like me spinning a pizza pie&#8211;the crust&#8211;in the air, then adding a few more globs of dough to it and then giving it enough spins that it flattens itself back out again.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  As long as you don&#8217;t hit it too hard&#8230; now you take that nice pretty disk and you hit it at a right angle with something else that&#8217;s huge&#8230; and it&#8217;s just going to get obliterated into nothing.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And that&#8217;s when you get your big elliptical galaxy.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Exactly. So, we think in the modern universe&#8230; think&#8230; don&#8217;t know for certain&#8230; think&#8230; this is why it&#8217;s a mystery&#8230; that most galaxies are probably formed by little spuds coming together and building bigger and bigger things. But the problem is, as we look back at the early universe&#8230; we still find giant galaxies. And these giant galaxies haven&#8217;t had time to form by little things coming together. So we think in the early universe, when you did have giant clumps of stuff floating around in these occasionally anomalously large over-densities, we think that occasionally you were able to have these giant collapsing clouds that formed all at once a giant elliptical galaxy.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So is it option C&#8230; both?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, that&#8217;s what we think. But we don&#8217;t know for certain! But this is the type of thing that we should be able to answer in the next few years, and hopefully we&#8217;re going to be able to get a good handle on it with the James Webb Space Telescope.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right. And this is the telescope that&#8217;s going to be looking at infrared, and so it&#8217;s going to be able to see the earliest moments of the universe when visible light is red-shifted out to the infrared, and it should be able to see those either giant galaxies forming all at once or those smaller galaxies coming together. So would you be almost least-surprised to see it be both? To see big galaxies forming and small galaxies coming together?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I&#8217;m aiming for both.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  You&#8217;re aiming for both&#8230; huh&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Because &#8220;both&#8221; gives you this one concept of giant cloud, where giant cloud has varying degrees of giantness, collapses to form something. Sometimes those somethings are really tiny and those tiny things merge to get bigger and bigger. But occasionally, you end up with giant elliptical galaxy all at once. And that&#8217;s kinda cool.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah&#8230; I like that. Ok, well then let&#8217;s move on to our next question then&#8230; now that we&#8217;ve solved that one. So which came first&#8230; super-massive black holes or their galaxies? We now know that every galaxy pretty much has a super-massive black hole lurking at its heart and that the mass of that super-massive black hole seems to have some relation to the mass of the galaxy. Big galaxies have massive black holes, and small galaxies have less-massive black holes. So the question is do we get a super-massive black hole and then it&#8217;s able to attract enough galaxy around it, or when you get a galaxy is it forming a super-massive black hole that&#8217;s to scale at the center?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And this is one of those things that we&#8217;re still sorting out. As we look around, it&#8217;s not just the size of the galaxy that the black hole is related to, but very specifically the size of the bulge of the galaxy. So in a spiral galaxy this is that round basketball that seems embedded in the center of the galaxy. In giant ellipticals, it&#8217;s just the whole giant elliptical. And consistently, whether the super-massive black hole is millions of times the mass of the sun or billions of times the mass of the sun, consistently it&#8217;s about 1/1000 of the size of that bulge in mass. And as we look further and further back in time, we eventually start to hit the point where the galaxies hadn&#8217;t quite formed yet. And this is where it gets interesting, because the super-massive black hole had to come from somewhere. It had to eat something to get big, and&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  It had to accrete, right, it had to form star after star, gas after gas to get bigger and bigger and bigger.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right. The way we know things formed in the early universe is that you started with dark matter, and then the regular matter flowed into the dark matter, and what it&#8217;s looking like is maybe&#8230; but we don&#8217;t know if this was always true because we&#8217;re working with an observational sample that you can count on one hand&#8230; but it&#8217;s looking like maybe the black holes formed first, but what did they form out of&#8230; is it simply that you had all the material in one of these dark matter halos collapse down to form a super-massive black hole or is it just the ones we found so far are the naked ones, and as we keep looking we&#8217;re going to find ones that are completely surrounded by material. We&#8217;re just not sure.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So then to give evidence one way or another&#8230; what would we be looking for?  Would we be looking for a large galaxy that seems to have no super-massive black hole in it?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, what we need to do is keep looking back and back and back until we find the smallest critters can be defined as a galaxy. And look to see do they still have this ratio of 1/1000 for the black hole to the galaxy mass. At the point that that ratio breaks down we should be able to say &#8220;Ah more mass, mass must have come first and mass collapsed into black hole, or ah, more black holes black holes must have formed first.&#8221;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So, it&#8217;s that ratio&#8230; that ratio holds true in every galaxy we see around us right now&#8230; we just keep looking further and further back in time, further away, until we see it push off that ratio, one way or the other.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And we need to consistently see with a sample size bigger than you and I can count on our  combined fingers and toes.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, because right now all we&#8217;ve got is gravitational lensing, these&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  There&#8217;s a few examples where we&#8217;re looking in the radio&#8230; but they&#8217;re rare.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right. But once again, James Webb coming to our rescue should help us solve this one.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Exactly.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So, do you think this is another one that we should nail within&#8230; the next decade?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I do, I do&#8230; I think this another one that James Webb is gonna&#8230; I think this one is a combination of James Webb and the Atacama microwave millimeter&#8230; ALMA  I think it&#8217;s going to solve that problem for us&#8230; Large Array.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, and if you had to take a poll&#8230; I know this is pointless, but where would you come down?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I&#8217;m going to&#8230;.  oh God, I would give you a different answer on a different day of the week. I don&#8217;t know. Based on the fact that I&#8217;ve been eating gummy bears I&#8217;m going to say black holes first.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Ok. And is it possible that it&#8217;s both? That the black hole formed as the galaxy formed around it in perfect lockstep?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I actually wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if it&#8217;s some combination of the amount of dark matter versus regular matter in a specific over-density affects which happens.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And I don&#8217;t know how those two play out.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Ok. Alright, well let&#8217;s move on to the next question. So, your next question, and this is another one that you threw into the mix which is where are the green galaxies? Should there be green galaxies? Because I thought that there really shouldn&#8217;t/couldn&#8217;t be green stars. Because it&#8217;s the way the photons add up&#8230; with a star you&#8217;re not going to get green. But would you get a green galaxy?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  This is a matter of green by eye versus green on paper. There aren&#8217;t green stars by eye, but if you look at the color of stars on paper, mathematically, what is the wavelength of the peak color of light coming out of the telescope&#8230; green stars are out there. We just don&#8217;t perceive them as green.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Because we&#8217;re seeing&#8230; even if they&#8217;re mostly green&#8230; we&#8217;re seeing enough on both sides of green that it looks some other color.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, we see them as white, which is kind of annoying.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  They seem white to us&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah it&#8217;s boring&#8230; Now the problem is on paper, you take galaxies and you do a plot of color versus luminosities and you get this beautiful red cluster&#8230; beautiful distribution of red galaxies. All the galaxies with dead stars&#8230; mostly ellipticals, not all&#8230; there are a very, very tiny rare, rare fraction of ellipticals that are blue&#8230; just to be surprising and odd. But, nice, beautiful red branch of galaxies. Then you have this cluster of blue galaxies in the same diagram&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right. With their furious star formation&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right. And some of them have less star formation than others&#8230; no big deal. So in this beautiful diagram, you can pretty much draw a line through the valley of green, where there aren&#8217;t any.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And yet these pretty charts predict them.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, that&#8217;s the thing&#8230; they&#8217;re not really predicted. There&#8217;s just no real reason that they shouldn&#8217;t exist. What looks likes is happening is you have galaxies with lots of nice happy star formation&#8230;. star formation&#8230; star formation&#8230; blue galaxy&#8230; happy blue galaxy making stars. Then you have galaxies&#8211;no star formation. Red stars everywhere. But that intermediate that would give you this nice mix&#8211;it leads to green. There&#8217;s a few examples in there, but mostly you just have this valley of nothing. So, for whatever reason, across all the different types of galaxies that are out there, star formation has this tendency to just shut off abruptly. And when it shuts off, it&#8217;s that abrupt shut off that leads to this valley of green.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And it goes red&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It goes red.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  It goes blue to red and it doesn&#8217;t have&#8230;. and so I guess if we saw green, we would see sort of a slow turn-off of the star formation. We would see a mixture of star-forming and not-star-forming, and then we&#8217;d get that in-between stage, but we don&#8217;t see that&#8230; it&#8217;s as you said, it&#8217;s a party, and then the party&#8217;s over.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yes.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah. Hmmm. As opposed to something that&#8217;s sort of in-between. Are there any examples at all? Or not?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  The valley of green isn&#8217;t completely empty. But it is still this deep, deep valley in the color-magnitude diagram of galaxies.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And so is there any reason? What do you think?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well looking at the things that trigger star formation and end star formation, we have&#8230; Quasars have the ability to strangle galaxies. First giving off so much light pressure that they clear out the region around them while at the same time hungrily eating at the beginning. That has some effects on star formation. We have galaxy collisions can cause rapid-fire star formation that eats up all remaining gas and dust in spiral galaxies, and when it&#8217;s over, it&#8217;s over.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So, we have a lot of mechanisms that make star formation start&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And, if you have a system that hasn&#8217;t had one of these traumas&#8230; star formation is just going to keep going par normal. What we don&#8217;t have is a mechanism that seems to allow a galaxy to just casually peter itself out&#8230; instead they like to die by collision, die by harassment, die by ram pressure stripping, which is just the dirtiest phrase a galactic astronomer ever came up with.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So is there some mechanism then that turns off star formation as abruptly and violently as it&#8217;s begun?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It just&#8230; well in all these occasions where you end up with rapid violent star formation, that rapid violent star formation burns through all the gas and dust quickly or blows it out of the system, and it&#8217;s usually a combination of the two. What we&#8217;re missing is the opportunity for a nice normal galaxy like our own Milky Way galaxy to simply peter itself out. To simply slowly and aging with grace, run out of star formation. And so instead what we end up with is happy blue spiral, spiral that has had a hard life and turned red, violently blue spiral that is in the process of being destroyed, and nothing really in between.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Well, let&#8217;s move on then. Our next simple question is what is dark matter? And this is a good one because I think we&#8217;re getting some pretty tantalizing evidence. Last show we talked about dark energy and you gave it a 50-50 chance that we&#8217;d figure it out in our lifetime. But dark matter&#8230; dark matter is getting close. Set the background, then, on what dark matter is or what we know&#8230; another place-holder name obviously.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It started out as a place-holder name&#8230; it started out as the way we refer to whatever stuff it was that was causing galaxies to rotate as though they had a lot more mass than we could find with radio and optical and other forms of light telescopes. It was the word we gave for whatever it was that caused the galaxies in clusters to orbit one another too rapidly. All of these places as we look around the universe we see things moving and acting as though there&#8217;s substantially more mass than what we can see. That unseen mass we call dark matter.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, and there were two theories, right? There was that there was a particle that didn&#8217;t give off any kind of electromagnetic radiation&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Or particles&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Or particles, yeah, a collection of particles&#8230; a zoo of particles&#8230; but yet they could still influence one another and regular matter through gravity. The other theory being a modification of changing gravity as we know it&#8230; that over the long distances gravity acts a little funny. But I think now with the evidence that&#8217;s piling up, you can sort of get rid of the second theory, right? We can actually see dark matter being separated out of galaxies&#8230; stripped away or condensed together&#8230; through gravitational interactions, so there&#8217;s clearly some great big cloud of particles surrounding galaxies, influencing it through gravity yet invisible to electromagnetic radiation.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, and not only invisible to electromagnetic radiation, but also just plain refusing to play nice with the electromagnetic force. So whatever this stuff is, and we call it generally&#8230; we think it&#8217;s some sort of non-baryonic matter, stuff that isn&#8217;t like protons and neutrons, whatever it is, it doesn&#8217;t interact via the electromagnetic force, it doesn&#8217;t interact via light or interact with light or do anything regarding light except gravitationally reach out and change the path of light. And that&#8217;s how we find it. We can look through space and see how light from the most distance galaxies gets distorted by the gravitational pull of unseen stuff. We can map out the distribution of this stuff and this is where we&#8217;ve learned its distribution around colliding galaxies, this is how we&#8217;ve learned its distribution in clusters of galaxies. We&#8217;ve been able to come up with phrases that don&#8217;t sound pretty&#8230; it&#8217;s collisionless particles&#8230; particles so tiny in cross section that they don&#8217;t generally interact with one other directly through collisions.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And like we would experience air as particles colliding together&#8230; that&#8217;s air pressure&#8230; particles banging into each other and banging into us, but this would be particles that don&#8217;t even do that.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, right. So, very small cross-section, doesn&#8217;t interact via the electromagnetic force, just generally doesn&#8217;t interact with anything. And we have experience with things like this&#8230; we just call them neutrinos. And neutrinos may actually be part of what makes up dark matter. There&#8217;s a whole lot more out there and it&#8217;s possible, if the theories of super-symmetry are right, that the Large Hadron Collider, as it does its experiments, will be able to detect the lightest of these super-symmetric particles that might be dark matter. So, we&#8217;re getting there.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  But there have been more discoveries in the last&#8230; even this year, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right so we&#8217;ve been looking&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Closing in on dark matter&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, so we&#8217;ve been using the same types of detectors that we used to detect neutrinos to try to find dark matter. And there&#8217;s been some results out there that look like maybe just maybe with more repetition and more crunching and more testing, maybe we&#8217;re starting to detect some of these generally refusing-to-interact particles. Because even though they have a small cross-section, that doesn&#8217;t mean that they&#8217;re zero in size. So occasionally they will cause something to happen, they will cause something to flicker. And it&#8217;s those flickers that we&#8217;re looking for.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And so it&#8217;s interesting, even when we were beginning this show three years ago&#8230; almost four years ago, we would talk about it, lending a lot of equal credence towards particles modified&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Modified Newtonian dynamics&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Modified gravity theory&#8230; but now I think we&#8217;re talking about particles, we&#8217;re talking about certain characteristics of particles, what they&#8217;re kind of like, the methods we&#8217;re going to be using to find them, so it&#8217;s interesting to see those theories evolve and so how do you like our odds?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I think it&#8217;s looking great. For me the turning point for me was when the Bullet Cluster images came out. We&#8217;ve also had the COSMOS project which mapped out dark matter.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And for those of you that don&#8217;t know, the Bullet Cluster&#8211;this is this example where you had two huge clusters of galaxies coming together, and the stars were passing right past each other, the dark matter was passing right past each other, but the gas was colliding and mixing in the middle, and so you got this separation like someone had taken a flour sifter to a galaxy, right, and you got the stars and dark matter on one side and you got the gas separated out from it. So clearly there&#8217;s some thing that&#8217;s there. It&#8217;s just amazing.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, it&#8217;s so close. We&#8217;re getting there&#8230; soon.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah, so there you go. What is dark matter? We don&#8217;t know, but we hope to figure it out soon. Alright, well then as a relation to that question then, where are the dark matter galaxies? So if we do have this process where dark matter is being separated from galaxies, or perhaps they&#8217;re just as formed after the Big Bang, could you end up with whole galaxies that are just dark matter?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And that&#8217;s one of the really, really interesting mysteries that we&#8217;re still working to sort out. And the COSMOS project started to get us closer. It did a map of the distribution of luminous matter&#8211;the normal stuff we can see&#8211;and of dark matter based on gravitational lensing. And what they found was, there are places where we have over-densities&#8230; where we have extra amounts of dark matter and there isn&#8217;t luminous matter there as well. We&#8217;re not seeing the nice dense things we&#8217;d identify as a galaxy. Instead we&#8217;re seeing these big amorphous halos, but new research is also showing that dark matter interacts weird when you start getting really dense gravitational wells. It doesn&#8217;t seem to interact with black holes the way normal matter does. We&#8217;re still sorting this out and I have to admit that I need more sleep to reread the paper to better understand the results.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  But the thinking is that dark matter doesn&#8217;t even make its way into black holes in the same way. It just zips past. I guess the point is because regular matter has that larger cross-section, it&#8217;s bouncing into itself around the outside of a black hole, and it&#8217;s subject to tidal forces, but the cross-section of the&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And there&#8217;s frictional slowing&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah, but because this stuff&#8230; you could pile mountains and mountains of dark matter around itself and it&#8217;s not going to really be bonking into each other. You&#8217;re not going to get that frictional slowing.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And it may be that you just can&#8217;t get without a black hole in the center, the same sorts of density gradients that we&#8217;d recognize as a dark matter galaxy. It may be that we just can&#8217;t get that nice super-dense center followed by either a surrounding halo or a surrounding disk. But we do know that there are large amorphous boring-shaped but completely dark density areas of dark matter.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So it&#8217;s almost like you can get regular matter to do things, but you can&#8217;t get the dark matter to do anything, and so you can separate out the regular matter, but you&#8217;re still going to end up with a ball of dark matter that isn&#8217;t going to collapse, that isn&#8217;t going to form, and it isn&#8217;t going to black-holify, and it&#8217;s just kinda there&#8230; doing its own thing, not playing by the rules.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  So we need to look at more of the universe using gravitational lensing to try to find the distribution. We&#8217;ve only looked at a very narrow basically straw through the galaxy.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  But we don&#8217;t see&#8230; so far we don&#8217;t see dark matter of differing densities, is that what you&#8217;re saying?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, we see it of different densities, but we don&#8217;t see any really high densities that look like galaxies, but we need to look more.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  As you said, we&#8217;re looking through a straw and we need to do a better survey. Yeah, are there plans in the works for that?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  There are lots and lots of different survey teams working to look at these things.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It&#8217;s just slow.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Very cool. Well thanks Pamela. We&#8217;ll keep rolling. I can see my list&#8230; there are more mysteries.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Sounds good Fraser&#8230; I&#8217;ll be talking to you later.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Alright, I&#8217;ll talk to you later.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Bye-bye.</p>
<p>
</p>
</div>
<p><small>This transcript is not an exact match to the audio file. It has been edited for clarity. </small></p>
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<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/04/ep-179-mysteries-of-the-universe-part-2/' addthis:title='Ep. 179: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2 '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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<enclosure url="http://traffic.libsyn.com/astronomycast/AstroCast-100301.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>Today we tackle more thrilling mysteries of the Universe. And by tackle, we mean, acknowledge their puzzling existence. Some mysteries will be solved shortly, others will likely trouble astronomers for centuries to come. Join us for part 2. </itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>Today we tackle more thrilling mysteries of the Universe. And by tackle, we mean, acknowledge their puzzling existence. Some mysteries will be solved shortly, others will likely trouble astronomers for centuries to come. Join us for part 2.






	 Download Ep. 179: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2
	Jump to Shownotes
	Jump to Transcript or Download


Show Notes

5.  Do Galaxies Form Bottom Up or Top Down?

	Galaxy Origins -- Nick Strobel
	Galaxy Formation -- Bill Keel
	The Hidden Lives of Galaxies -- NASA
	James Webb Space Telescope

6.  Which came first -- the supermassive black hole or the galaxy?

	Which Comes First: Galaxies or Black Holes? -- Universe Today
	Bulges Affect Galaxy formation -- Astronomy
	The Milky Way&#039;s Central Bulge -- Sol Station
	Abstract: On the Bulge-to-disk-size ratio -- Springerlink
	ALMA

7.  Where are the green galaxies?

	New Class of Galaxies:  Small, Green and bursting with New Stars -- Christian Science Monitor
	Galaxy Zoo Discoveres New Group of Galaxies: Green Peas -- Universe Today
	Why aren&#039;t there any green stars? -- Astronomy Cafe
	Video: Why Aren&#039;t there Any Green Stars? -- Cool Cosmos
	Ram Pressure Stripping -- Swinburne Astronomy

8.  What is Dark Matter?

	Dark Matter -- Imagine the Universe
	Dark Energy, Dark Matter -- NASA
	NOVA:  The Dark Matter Mystery (video)
	Are We Close to Finding Dark Matter? -- Universe Today
	The Bullet Cluster and Dark Matter -- NASA
	Cosmic Evolution Survey (COSMOS)

9.  Where are the Dark Matter Galaxies?

	Dark Matter Galaxy? -- Universe Today
	Greedy Supermassive Black Holes Dislike Dark Matter -- Universe Today
	Gravitational Lensing -- UTK


Transcript: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2Download the transcript

Fraser:  Astronomy Cast Episode 179 for Monday March 1, 2010, Mysteries of the Universe, Part 2. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. My name is Fraser Cain, I&#039;m the publisher of Universe Today, and with me is Dr. Pamela Gay, a professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Hi Pamela, how&#039;s it going?
Pamela:  It&#039;s going well. How are you doing, Fraser? 
Fraser:  Good! It&#039;s actually exactly the same as I was for the last show because we&#039;re recording 5 minutes after we finished recording the previous show, so whatever answers I gave you last time--they still stand.  All right... so today we tackle more thrilling mysteries of the universe. And by tackle, we mean acknowledge their puzzling existence. Some mysteries will be solved shortly, others will likely trouble astronomers for centuries to come. Join us for part two. Alright, so this time we&#039;re going to focus on some massive problems--galaxies. We talked about the Milky Way, but now we&#039;re going to talk in general about some galaxies and their formation. So here&#039;s the first question--do galaxies form bottom-up or top-down? You threw that question into the mix, so I have no idea what you&#039;re talking about. So what is your question?
Pamela:  So there&#039;s two basic ideas on how galaxies originate. One is you take giant clump of gas and dust and other material and let it collapse and you end up forming giant galaxy. The other is you take small spud... form small gas cloud... take another small spud... form small gas cloud... start throwing these things together... they merge... form something slightly bigger. Throw something else in there... it merges... gets slightly bigger. So the idea is either you have galaxies form all at once from the collapse of a giant cloud of gas, dust, and stuff, or you have bunches of little tiny things that collapse out gravitationally, and then together build bigger and bigger objects. 
Fraser:  Can I take a stab at it?
Pamela:  Yeah!
Fraser:  I think bottom up... let me tell you why. When you get really big spiral galaxies colliding together,</itunes:summary>
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		<title>Ep. 178: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/04/ep-178-mysteries-of-the-universe-part-1/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/04/ep-178-mysteries-of-the-universe-part-1/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Apr 2010 03:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
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				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[All finished with the Milky Way, it&#8217;s time to move on to the biggest mysteries of all. The mysteries of the Universe. Let&#8217;s wonder about dark matter and dark energy, and the very nature of reality itself. Download Ep. 178: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1 Jump to Shownotes Jump to Transcript or Download Show [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/04/ep-178-mysteries-of-the-universe-part-1/' addthis:title='Ep. 178: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1 '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All finished with the Milky Way, it&#8217;s time to move on to the biggest mysteries of all. The mysteries of the Universe. Let&#8217;s wonder about dark matter and dark energy, and the very nature of reality itself.</p>
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<li><strong> </strong><a href="http://traffic.libsyn.com/astronomycast/AstroCast-100222.mp3"><strong>Download Ep. 178: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1</strong></a></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or <strong><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/transcripts/AstroCast-100222_transcript.pdf">Download</a></strong>
</li>
<p></p>
<div id="shownotes">
<a name="shownotes"><br />
<h3>Show Notes</h3>
<p></a></p>
<ul />
1.  <strong>What started the Big Bang?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang/">What Powered The Big Bang</a> &#8212;  NASA Astrophysics</li>
<li><a href="http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang/">Big Bang </a>&#8211; University of Michigan</li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_cosmo_struct.html">How Did Large Scale Structures Form in the Universe? </a> &#8212; WMAP</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/15051/thinking-about-time-before-the-big-bang/">Thinking About Time Before the Big Bang</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/astronomy/cosmology/ep-166-multiverses/">Ep. 166: Multiverses</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/42696/if-we-live-in-a-multiverse-how-many-are-there/">If We Live in a Multiverse, How Many Are There? </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.superstringtheory.com/">String Theory</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/6_5daa7ca55793bcf9bd03dd45c1a97f4f.jpg">As requested:  larger version of lead image</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>2.  What Triggered Inflation?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/guth02/guth02_p2.html">The Inflationary Universe</a> &#8212; By Alan Guth via The Edge</li>
<li><a href="http://astro.berkeley.edu/~jcohn/inflation.html">Inflation</a> &#8212; UC Berkeley</li>
<li><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/01/q_a_did_inflation_happen_befor.php">Did Inflation Happen Before the Big Bang? </a> &#8212; Starts With a Bang</li>
<li><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/~alinde/">Andrei Linde </a></li>
<li><a href="http://web.mit.edu/physics/people/faculty/guth_alan.html">Alan Guth</a></li>
<li><a href="http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/forces.html">Forces of the Universe</a> &#8211; UTK</li>
<li>&#8220;<a href="http://www.cbs.com/primetime/big_bang_theory/">Big Bang Theory&#8221; Television show</a></li>
<li><a href="http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2008/10/bolderdash-matter-clearly-consists-of.html">Video:  &#8220;I prefer my space stringy not loopy&#8221; </a>via Physics Buzz</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>3.  Will we be able to see beyond the Cosmic Microwave Background?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://background.uchicago.edu/~whu/beginners/introduction.html">Introduction to the CMB</a> &#8212; U of Chicago</li>
<li><a href="http://aether.lbl.gov/www/science/cmb.html">CMB Radiation</a> &#8212; Lawrence Berkeley National Lab</li>
<li><a href="http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/stu/advanced/cosmos_history.html">Brief History of the Universe </a>&#8211; CWRU</li>
<li><a href="http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/GravWaves.html">What are Gravitational Waves </a>&#8211; UIUC</li>
</ul>
<p><strong>4.  What is Dark Energy?</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/dark_energy/">Dark Energy </a>&#8211; HubbleSite</li>
<li><a href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00406.htm">Energy for an Expanding Universe</a> &#8212; Ask a Scientist</li>
<li><a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/universe/howbig.html">How Big the the Universe </a>&#8211; NOVA</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_constant.html">Cosmological Constant </a>&#8211; UCLA</li>
<li><a href="http://jdem.gsfc.nasa.gov/#content">The Joint Dark Energy Mission</a> &#8212; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy">Vacuum Energy </a>&#8211; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiescence">Quiescence </a>&#8211; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-virtual-particles-rea">Are Virtual Particles Really Popping into Existence?</a> &#8212; Scientific American</li>
<li><a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-is-the-casimir-effec">What is the Casimir Effect?</a> SciAm</li>
</ul>
<div id="transcript">
<a name="transcript"><br />
<h3>Transcript: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1</h3>
<p></a><strong><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/transcripts/AstroCast-100222_transcript.pdf">Download the transcript</a></strong></p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Astronomy Cast Episode 178 for Monday February 22, 2010, Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. My name is Fraser Cain, I&#8217;m the publisher of Universe Today, and with me is Dr. Pamela Gay, a professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Hi Pamela, how&#8217;re you doing?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I&#8217;m doing well, Fraser. How are you doing?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Very well. Had a great trip down in the United States. I took the kids on an impromptu road trip. We went down through California and Disneyland and San Diego Zoo and all that. It was really good. The weather was nice.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  That&#8217;s awesome.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah, yeah, it was good. And you were in&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  South Africa. The irony of course is that you were in America while I was out of the country, but these things happen.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And on the wrong side of the United States, but yeah&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So now we&#8217;re all finished with the Milky Way, and it&#8217;s time to move on to the biggest mysteries of all&#8211;the mysteries of the Universe. Let&#8217;s wonder about dark matter and dark energy, and the very nature of reality itself. No answers today&#8230; only questions. So, let&#8217;s just start with like a really easy one. I&#8217;m going to throw you a softball, and&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Oh, it&#8217;s always dangerous when you say that&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  I know, it totally is&#8230; and we&#8217;ll go from there. So, the first question that perhaps astronomers might wonder about is what started the Big Bang?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  We don&#8217;t know.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Well, &#8220;we don&#8217;t know&#8221; is going to be our answer for everything, so you can&#8217;t say that. But I think, we&#8217;ve gone into this a couple of times&#8230; what&#8217;s great about this is that the Big Bang&#8230; the theory of the Big Bang&#8230; is really that by looking at the expansion of the Universe, astronomers can look back and say, well the Universe is moving away from itself, and so it had to have come from a single point in space.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, you have to be careful, because there&#8217;s no center. It&#8217;s all of space came from a single point.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  From a single point&#8230; that&#8217;s right&#8230; not in space, just a single point.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And so every point in the Universe is the center of the Universe.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, and then you can say, well fine, smarty pants, where did that come from? And you just kinda go&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  This is one of those uncomfortable truths that some people have gone so far as to say well it was a quantum bounce and there was actually no beginning, it was simply a wave function that has changed over time.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Maybe.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Others are more definitive&#8230; it started from the quantum foam&#8230; cosmic foam&#8230; name a foam of choice&#8230; and ours is just one of many bubbling universes in a multiverse.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Again, not so satisfying.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Well, it&#8217;s as satisfying or as unsatisfying as any of these answers, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, and the thing is at the end of the day we have this problem that time started at moment zero, and our ability to make calculations started at about 10-47 of a second after the Universe began. And we just don&#8217;t have a way of sorting out anything prior to moment zero.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And I think it doesn&#8217;t&#8230; you don&#8217;t&#8230; I mean obviously it would be wonderful to know&#8230; is it a chain of events? Is there some larger multiverse with membranes colliding with each other and starting new universes and big bangs, and all that kind of stuff. But, the Big Bang perfectly explains the Universe in its current state. It helps you understand as you look back in time and look back at earlier and earlier states, what came before it is a mystery, but it&#8230;.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It&#8217;s sort of like a current World Atlas is really good at describing the world we live in and to understand how you get from Boston to Beijing. But that atlas will do you absolutely no good to understand the proto-Earth that had no continents prior to the Moon being formed. Things change. Things started out different from what they are now. But we have a firm understanding of the Universe we live in. We just have no clue where it came from.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And it&#8217;s the same with the theory of evolution, with any of these&#8230; This theory beautifully explains what we see&#8230; with evolution, with the amazing different kinds of life that we see on the Earth, and the Big Bang explains the movement and the motion that we see. And it doesn&#8217;t need to explain anything else. It&#8217;s a really interesting conversation to have with someone who may have a philosophical problem with the Big Bang. Where did the Big Bang come from? I don&#8217;t believe in the Big Bang because I don&#8217;t know where it came from. You can say, well, it doesn&#8217;t really matter.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It&#8217;s just an unanswered question. The Big Bang describes the &#8220;whys&#8221; of the Universe&#8230; why do we have large-scale structure? Why do we have the set of abundances that we have? It doesn&#8217;t explain the &#8220;hows&#8221; of how we got here. That&#8217;s a different set of questions.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And, it&#8217;s entirely likely that we&#8217;ll never be able to answer them. And, you know, what are you going to do? That&#8217;s ok. I&#8217;m ok with that. It doesn&#8217;t bother me in the least.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It gives the people who work in the Humanities things to talk about.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And it gives string theorists&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And I love Humanities people&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah&#8211;no angry letters! And it gives string theorists their salary as well, so let&#8217;s go on to our next mystery&#8230; so there you go&#8230; if anyone can solve that one, we&#8217;d be grateful. But if not&#8230; work on this one&#8230; The next big question, then, is what triggered inflation? Inflation being that moment of incredible expansion shortly after the Big Bang. When did inflation kind of get rolling?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Inflation actually started in the first fractions of the first second. And it ended in the first fractions of the first second. It was a very brief period of time during which the universe violently expanded, where points side-by-side were moving apart from one another faster than the speed of light. Now, it wasn&#8217;t that they were moving through space faster than the speed of light. It was that the whole universe was expanding such that two points seemed to be moving apart faster than the speed of light, which is completely legal according to relativity.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah, that&#8217;s the only way that you&#8217;re allowed to move faster than the speed of light is to be moving apart&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  &#8230; is to be carried by the grid of spacetime.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Now, it lasted the briefest of instances, but without it, we wouldn&#8217;t have the universe that, when we look outside, is the same to the north, to the south, to the east, to the west. Because the furthest galaxies in the north haven&#8217;t had time for their light to travel all the way across the universe to interact with the galaxies we see to the furthest extremes in the south. Without inflation, when we looked at these two systems, we should see something radically different. But instead, we see something that seems to imply that the universe was well-mixed like a well-mixed batch of cookie dough&#8230; you don&#8217;t have some clump of flour in one place and clump of egg in another. And the only way to get this thorough mixing or to instead, perhaps, just smooth things out so much so you don&#8217;t see the differences, is to have a rapid period of inflation. Now, we&#8217;re not entirely sure where it came from. Why it lasted as long as it did is another one of those things that has us kind of scratching our head.  But we know that had it not ended when it ended, well we would have perhaps ended up with a universe so big that nothing could gravitationally collapse. Or, had it ended sooner, we might have ended up with a universe with nothing but black holes. So without it, our universe might not exist in the form it exists, or even something livable. And had it not ended exactly right, we would have been toast as well.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, so inflation got the universe apart far enough that it wouldn&#8217;t gravitationally all sort of pop back in on itself, or all of the matter would crush back together. It got far apart enough that you get stars and not black holes.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And there&#8217;s some interesting theories out there that actually say that while inflation ended in our part of the cosmos, that maybe there&#8217;s this thing called eternal inflation&#8211;and this is work that Andrei Linde&#8217;s been doing&#8211;where we have different pockets where the inflation took place for different degrees, and it&#8217;s sort of rolling out forming bubbling universes that branch one off of the other in pockets of different inflation.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, but the question that we&#8217;re looking at right now is what got it going&#8230; why did it&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  We don&#8217;t know.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, so I mean, well of course we don&#8217;t know! As with the Big Bang we don&#8217;t know why or sort of why it started&#8230; what happened before it&#8230; and with inflation, some&#8230; it started at some discreet moment in time&#8211;something triggered it&#8230; and then it stopped at some discreet moment in time&#8211;something halted it.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yes, or at least it unrolled and then rolled back. But, yeah, it had a beginning, it had a middle, and it had an end.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  I think we&#8217;ve got a little more to work with than the Big Bang, right? Because the Big Bang is this opaque wall that you just can&#8217;t see behind. Inflation happened in the universe&#8230; in the river of time, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, unfortunately it also happened behind the cosmic microwave background, which meant that it happened during a period of time that we can&#8217;t observe. So, we have more data. We know what effects it had, and we can work backwards to figure out when it had to have happened. But we can&#8217;t exactly see all the conditions in the moments before it, and we can&#8217;t exactly experience during it to figure out why it stopped.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Are there any reasonable theories out there?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, there&#8217;s a number of different theories in place. Allen Guth continues to work very hard on the problem. Andrei Linde&#8217;s taking a look at it. And in their different models they&#8217;re looking at roles of&#8230; so we have eternal inflation, we have chaotic inflation, we have people trying to play with different amplitudes of inhomogeneities in the field that might have triggered different things happening. There&#8217;s a number of different theories, but right now we just don&#8217;t have a way to sort between the different ones to figure out what&#8217;s real and what&#8217;s not. It&#8217;s one of those things that it lies in the land of quantum mechanics and string theory, and hopefully as we get a better understanding of the particle world and quantum gravity, we&#8217;ll also get a better idea of how all these things fit into it.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  But it started to occur after some of the fundamental forces of the universe had frozen out, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yes. It occurred after all four of the forces had separated.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So, in theory, it couldn&#8217;t have happened until they were there&#8230; until the separation had happened, and yet&#8230; it didn&#8217;t exactly happen, right, at the moment after the fourth force froze out.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, but one of the things that leaves us hoping that a better understanding of particle physics will get us somewhere is that several of the theories for inflation involve loop quantum gravity&#8230; and this gets back to the old joke from &#8220;Big Bang Theory&#8221;&#8230; do you like your gravity loopy or stringy? And as we work to try to figure out inflation, we need to know is our gravity loopy or stringy?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Do you think&#8230; with the previous question I think it&#8217;s entirely likely that it&#8217;ll never get answered.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Do you think this one will get answered in our lifetime?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I give this one more of a 50-50 shot. And I don&#8217;t think it will ever be a definitive 100% I can beat up the crazies who email me saying no, we have three lines of evidence. That&#8217;s what I love about the Big Bang is that you can point at multiple lines of evidence that say that our theory is correct. I think we will reach a point where we have a theory that everyone agrees kind of works but we won&#8217;t have the multiple lines of evidence that say definitively that this is the correct theory.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  That&#8217;s hope, anyway.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It&#8217;s hope.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Alright, and this kind of ties into it, which is that will we ever be able to see beyond the cosmic microwave background radiation? And so this is that microwave background that&#8217;s all in the sky and it&#8217;s that afterglow from the Big Bang. But it&#8217;s not the glow from the Big Bang itself.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  No.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  It&#8217;s hundreds of thousands of years after the Big Bang.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, so more between 300 and 400 thousand years after the Big Bang the universe cooled to the point that it stopped being opaque. For the first several hundred thousand years, any poor innocent photon trying to get from point A to point B wouldn&#8217;t be able to do it because it was constantly being absorbed and re-emitted in a random direction. And this made the universe completely opaque to light. And that&#8217;s the catch&#8230; it&#8217;s completely opaque to light. So if we try to look in any color of light&#8230; microwave, gamma ray, doesn&#8217;t matter&#8230; any color of light&#8230; at an object that existed prior to that moment when the universe cooled enough that photons could fly free without constantly colliding with stuff, well, we can&#8217;t look there because light just couldn&#8217;t fly.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  For an analogy, would you say like maybe the inside of a star would be another place that&#8217;s opaque to light?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Exactly.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  So photons are generated inside the core of the star and they bounce around through the radiative zone of the star and it&#8217;s only when they reach the photosphere&#8230; when they get out of the star, that they get out into space and we can actually see them. </p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right, and the convective zone they&#8217;re helped out, but yeah, it&#8217;s a very similar idea that the light is constantly being absorbed and re-emitted. But while light was constantly getting absorbed and re-emitted and unable to travel in straight lines, gravity didn&#8217;t have that problem. And so that it was possible for a gravitational wave to flow through this soup of high-density particles. And there are people who think that maybe someday as we get better and better at detecting gravitational waves&#8230; and by better I mean able to detect gravitational waves&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Able to even detect one&#8230; ever&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right. Someday&#8230; far in the future&#8230; not in our lifetime, I don&#8217;t think, we may have better ways of detecting gravitational waves and be able to focus gravitational wave detectors the same way we focus telescopes, which are really just light wave detectors.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And for them, the Big Bang itself would be the wall.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Exactly. That was the moment gravity started. Well, a few brief bits of time after the Big Bang, gravity began to exist.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, and then in theory right at that moment, gravitational waves were being generated by the tremendous violence of the Big Bang itself.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, the only question is with all these small bits of matter going in and out of existence, would they do anything more than create a gravitational wave background? Who knows? This is the type of thing theorists are still working on. But it&#8217;s a neat idea that there is this one potential way to look behind the cosmic microwave. Now, like I said, there weren&#8217;t any neutron stars combining, there weren&#8217;t any supernovae exploding, and those are things we know give off large gravitational waves, but maybe something will come out when someday in our children&#8217;s children&#8217;s future we&#8217;re really good at detecting gravitational waves.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, do you think&#8230; is that our only hope to look beyond the CMB, or do you think there might be something else.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I really think that&#8217;s the only way we&#8217;re going to be able to do it. We know we can&#8217;t do it with light, and so gravity is the next option.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And speaking of next options&#8230; ok, so here&#8217;s another little one, he says&#8230; what is dark energy?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  This is the topic of &#8220;we don&#8217;t know&#8221; again! But here at least here we have cool place-holder words.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  We have evidence&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, we have evidence, too&#8230; you&#8217;re right. So, back in 1998 a couple of different supernovae discovery teams were trying to measure the rate at which the expansion of the universe is slowing. You can use supernovae to measure distance very accurately, and you measure the distance to something, and you then measure its Doppler shift to see how quickly it&#8217;s receding, and by measuring how recession rate changes with distance, you can start to measure how the expansion rate of the universe changes with time. Up until that point, we had all been taught that there were basically a couple of different options. The universe was going to slow enough that eventually it actually reversed directions and collapsed in on itself. It was going to slowly slow until the expansion actually stopped, or it was going to slow&#8230; but not so much that it ever actually stopped. So we had basically expansion forever, universe stops expanding, universe collapses in on itself. What we hadn&#8217;t anticipated was what&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Option D&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, option D&#8230; the one that you don&#8217;t get. Both of these teams, who weren&#8217;t working together, but were rather working in competition, discovered instead that our universe is actually accelerating itself apart. The rate at which it&#8217;s expanding is increasing with time. We don&#8217;t know why. There is some sort of a pressure, some sort of a force, some sort of an energy, some sort of a something that we named dark energy that&#8217;s out there pushing our universe apart. And what&#8217;s really cool about it is as you look through space, the amount of energy that is needed for this expansion, this acceleration of the expansion, rather, is constant with volume, which means that as our universe increases in size, the amount of energy that&#8217;s present&#8230; pushing it apart&#8230; is increasing as well and staying constant per cubic meter. And that&#8217;s just one of those screwball things we can&#8217;t explain at all.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right. And once again, it&#8217;s like the best kind of science is the unexpected science&#8230; it&#8217;s the unexpected discoveries&#8230; the oh, that&#8217;s weird&#8230; I wasn&#8217;t expecting that. And there&#8217;s some great&#8230; uh, there&#8217;s a Nova documentary that came out a few years ago that went into great detail and it&#8217;s great just to see the two science teams both just going this couldn&#8217;t be right, we made a mistake, we messed this up, we went back, we tried again, and no&#8230; it was still telling us that, you know&#8230; we went back&#8230; we recallibrated, looked again, you know&#8230; They&#8217;re so convinced that they&#8217;re wrong, that they&#8217;ve made a horrible mistake, and that they&#8217;ve botched up all this really valuable time with the Hubble Space Telescope and so now they need to go and pour through their data&#8230; And there&#8217;s this constant message coming through to them&#8230; no, no this is the way the universe really is&#8230; it&#8217;s not the universe&#8217;s problem that you weren&#8217;t ready for it.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  What&#8217;s so amazing, though, is that no one saw this coming. None of us wanted it&#8230; it made all of the cosmological equations ten times harder to deal with, and you can no longer assign them to undergrads. It makes us rewrite all of our textbooks. This was an expensive new discovery that made us redo lots of stuff. But in a single year, the entire community let loose a few expletives, and then accepted and embrace the fact that this is the universe we live in.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And I think this is a great example of a discovery that can do that&#8230; that can turn the whole thing on its ear, that the evidence was so good&#8230; it was independent, it was with good instruments, it was presented well, everyone looked at it and almost everybody just said well, yeah, I guess that&#8217;s the way the universe is. There wasn&#8217;t a lot of crying and complaining and people being vilified for their bizarre theories. So for all the people out there who have these alternative theories of the universe, this is one that completely turned over the whole idea of cosmology. The astronomers all accepted it and moved forward and modified their theories accordingly. So, it&#8217;s absolutely possible&#8230; you&#8217;ve just got to come with wonderful evidence.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right. And it helps if you happen to be at some of the best institutions in the world.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And so the question being&#8230; the one that we&#8217;re pondering here today is&#8230; what is it? And I know you don&#8217;t know&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, so some of the guesses are that it&#8217;s some sort of a vaccuum energy which is to say that all of space has a certain amount of energy in it, and out of this energy you get this bubbling of particles. Now, the problem is that the people who&#8217;ve run the calculations to sort out&#8230; ok, so if you consider that you constantly have this flux of matter and antimatter particles that are perfectly allowed to pop into existance and cancel each other out and pop out of existence and you look at what the leftover energy might be due to this, that, and the other thing&#8230; if you run all those calculations, what you find is the reality and the calculations are different by a factor of 10120. That&#8217;s a 1 followed by 120 zeros.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  More than a googel zeros. But wouldn&#8217;t you even if you had particles popping into existence, wouldn&#8217;t that just make the universe more dense? If I&#8217;m eating a muffin and it&#8217;s got blueberries in it, and they&#8217;re more blueberries popping into my muffin&#8230; it&#8217;s just going to make a yummier blueberry muffin.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, this is more like you have a blueberry and an antiblueberry&#8230; I&#8217;m not quite sure what that is&#8230; a huckleberry?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Yeah, right&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  You have a blueberry and an antiblueberry and they cancel each other out and together make it no more tasty, no more nice. But imagine you had this blueberry and this antiblueberry, and somehow while they cancel each other out&#8230; they always leave one grain of sugar because of some asymmetry.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, and  that would eventually leave me with a big pile of sugar&#8230; I get it. So you&#8217;re saying that people have run the calculation and it doesn&#8217;t work&#8230; it doesn&#8217;t hold up.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  But this could again be a matter of we&#8217;re still trying to figure out particle physics. Now, the other theory is that there is some sort of quiescence&#8230; some sort of field that permeates all of space and time. And that&#8217;s another one that these are people working in string theory, loop gravity, we need to figure out is the universe loopy or stringy, we need to be able to prove is string theory right? And this is something that we&#8217;ve brought up before in the show that right now there aren&#8217;t any definitive experiements that say it&#8217;s string theory and not something else.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And so the thinking being that as you have more universe you have more of this field and therefore you get more universe&#8230; so it&#8217;s like this positive feedback loop?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Or perhaps just our universe is embedded in the field?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Whatever that means&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, and this gets to the&#8230; people always ask what&#8217;s outside the universe, and you say well we can&#8217;t answer that because the universe is everything&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Stop asking stupid questions is what we say&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Right&#8230; exactly&#8230;. but this is sort of&#8230; well, outside our universe is&#8230;  the parts of the quiescent field that aren&#8217;t inside our universe&#8230; and that&#8217;s just kind of ugly. But that&#8217;s just one way of looking at quiescence&#8230; there&#8217;s many different ways of looking at it. This is the problem with the early days of theories is you take five theorists and you throw them in a room and they give you ten different contradictary ideas.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  But none of theme sound as gelled as&#8230; we don&#8217;t have time for it this show but next show we&#8217;ll talk about dark matter&#8230; in dark matter there&#8217;s some pretty robust ideas of what we&#8217;re looking at, and they&#8217;ve narrowed down the parameters, and you&#8217;re starting to look for some very specific things.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  And I think it&#8217;s the age. We only in 1998 were confronted with dark energy whereas dark matter has been around longer than I have.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And dark energy&#8217;s super weird. And so&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, dark matter was super weird when it was discovered, too.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  I suppose&#8230; yeah&#8230; and so I think the one I&#8217;m most familiar with is this one that you&#8217;re talking about with virtual particles popping into existence. And that&#8217;s true&#8230; I mean it&#8217;s not just&#8230; there are experiments that do show virtual particles popping into existence, so once again it&#8217;s not in the realm of bizarre&#8230;. the Casimir effect?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Yeah, we just don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s enough leftover bits to justify what we see.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  Right, so with dark energy there is&#8230; does that theory&#8230; well, my eyes glaze over&#8230;. well, it&#8217;s a field, you know, of virtual particles communicating with each other&#8230; and you&#8217;re just kinda like whaaaa? Well, you know, it all depends on if it&#8217;s loop gravity or string theory&#8230; whaaaat?  You know, and I can just imagine cornering one of these cosmologists and taking the better part of a day to really nail down in layman&#8217;s terms&#8230; I&#8217;ll do that sometime&#8230; Explain that to me again? Why is it a loop? But, to get to the bottom of that, obviously there&#8217;s no necessity for their theories to be elegant, for their theories to make sense to the layman&#8230; that&#8217;s my problem, it&#8217;s not theirs&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Well, you know there is this certain anticipation that there is an underlying elegance&#8230; it&#8217;s not a valid thing to want but F=ma, E=mc2, the Maxwell equations when written in tensor form are stunning. So we find over and over a simple elegance underlying the universe. And string theory looks kind of like mathematical spaghetti that died. There&#8217;s nothing pretty about it. So there is always this hope that it will reach the point where even a mere experimentalist will be able to understand the workings of the universe.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  And so, how do you like your odds on this one?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  I think dark energy may not be in our lifetime, but it will be in at least our children&#8217;s lifetimes. So, tell your little ones&#8230; keep their ears out and they&#8217;ll know the truth.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  That&#8217;s sad&#8230;. I want to know. Oh well&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  It may happen, it may happen&#8230; Vera Rubin&#8217;s still alive and we&#8217;re figuring out dark matter&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b>  No, no&#8230; I&#8217;ve already stated that I&#8217;m ok with mysteries and I&#8217;m going to be ok with this one, too. Alright, well, I think we&#8217;re out of time Pamela, so thanks a lot and we&#8217;ll talk to you with more mysteries next week.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b>  Sounds good Fraser&#8230; talk to you later.</p>
<p>
</p>
</div>
<p><small>This transcript is not an exact match to the audio file. It has been edited for clarity. </small></p>
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<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2010/04/ep-178-mysteries-of-the-universe-part-1/' addthis:title='Ep. 178: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1 '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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			<itunes:subtitle>All finished with the Milky Way, it&#039;s time to move on to the biggest mysteries of all. The mysteries of the Universe. Let&#039;s wonder about dark matter and dark energy, and the very nature of reality itself.    Download Ep.</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>All finished with the Milky Way, it&#039;s time to move on to the biggest mysteries of all. The mysteries of the Universe. Let&#039;s wonder about dark matter and dark energy, and the very nature of reality itself.






	 Download Ep. 178: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1
	Jump to Shownotes
	Jump to Transcript or Download



Show Notes

1.  What started the Big Bang?

	What Powered The Big Bang --  NASA Astrophysics
	Big Bang -- University of Michigan
	How Did Large Scale Structures Form in the Universe?  -- WMAP
	Thinking About Time Before the Big Bang -- Universe Today
	Ep. 166: Multiverses
	If We Live in a Multiverse, How Many Are There? -- Universe Today
	String Theory
	As requested:  larger version of lead image

2.  What Triggered Inflation?

	The Inflationary Universe -- By Alan Guth via The Edge
	Inflation -- UC Berkeley
	Did Inflation Happen Before the Big Bang?  -- Starts With a Bang
	Andrei Linde 
	Alan Guth
	Forces of the Universe - UTK
	&quot;Big Bang Theory&quot; Television show
	Video:  &quot;I prefer my space stringy not loopy&quot; via Physics Buzz

3.  Will we be able to see beyond the Cosmic Microwave Background?

	Introduction to the CMB -- U of Chicago
	CMB Radiation -- Lawrence Berkeley National Lab
	Brief History of the Universe -- CWRU
	What are Gravitational Waves -- UIUC

4.  What is Dark Energy?

	Dark Energy -- HubbleSite
	Energy for an Expanding Universe -- Ask a Scientist
	How Big the the Universe -- NOVA
	Cosmological Constant -- UCLA
	The Joint Dark Energy Mission -- NASA
	Vacuum Energy -- Wiki
	Quiescence -- Wiki
	Are Virtual Particles Really Popping into Existence? -- Scientific American
	What is the Casimir Effect? SciAm


Transcript: Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1Download the transcript

Fraser:  Astronomy Cast Episode 178 for Monday February 22, 2010, Mysteries of the Universe, Part 1. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. My name is Fraser Cain, I&#039;m the publisher of Universe Today, and with me is Dr. Pamela Gay, a professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Hi Pamela, how&#039;re you doing?
Pamela:  I&#039;m doing well, Fraser. How are you doing? 
Fraser:  Very well. Had a great trip down in the United States. I took the kids on an impromptu road trip. We went down through California and Disneyland and San Diego Zoo and all that. It was really good. The weather was nice. 
Pamela:  That&#039;s awesome.
Fraser:  Yeah, yeah, it was good. And you were in...
Pamela:  South Africa. The irony of course is that you were in America while I was out of the country, but these things happen. 
Fraser:  And on the wrong side of the United States, but yeah...
Pamela:  Yeah...
Fraser:  So now we&#039;re all finished with the Milky Way, and it&#039;s time to move on to the biggest mysteries of all--the mysteries of the Universe. Let&#039;s wonder about dark matter and dark energy, and the very nature of reality itself. No answers today... only questions. So, let&#039;s just start with like a really easy one. I&#039;m going to throw you a softball, and...
Pamela:  Oh, it&#039;s always dangerous when you say that...
Fraser:  I know, it totally is... and we&#039;ll go from there. So, the first question that perhaps astronomers might wonder about is what started the Big Bang?
Pamela:  We don&#039;t know.
Fraser:  Well, &quot;we don&#039;t know&quot; is going to be our answer for everything, so you can&#039;t say that. But I think, we&#039;ve gone into this a couple of times... what&#039;s great about this is that the Big Bang... the theory of the Big Bang... is really that by looking at the expansion of the Universe, astronomers can look back and say, well the Universe is moving away from itself, and so it had to have come from a single point in space.
Pamela:  Well, you have to be careful, because there&#039;s no center. It&#039;s all of space came from a single point.
Fraser:  From a single point... that&#039;s right...</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
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		<title>Ep. 166: Multiverses</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/12/ep-166-multiverses/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/12/ep-166-multiverses/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[What if our universe was just one in an infinite number of parallel universes; a possible outcome from the specific predictions of quantum mechanics. The idea of multiple universes is common in science fiction, but is there any actual science to back this theory up? Ep. 166: Multiverses Jump to Shownotes Jump to Transcript or [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/12/ep-166-multiverses/' addthis:title='Ep. 166: Multiverses '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div id="attachment_1069" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 160px"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-1069" title="Deep field image by Hubble" src="http://www.astronomycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/56532main_MM_image_feature_142_jw4-150x150.jpg" alt="Deep field image by Hubble" width="150" height="150" /><p class="wp-caption-text">Deep field image by Hubble</p></div>
<p>What if our universe was just one in an infinite number of parallel universes; a possible outcome from the specific predictions of quantum mechanics. The idea of multiple universes is common in science fiction, but is there any actual science to back this theory up?</p>
<p><span id="more-1068"></span></p>
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<td>
<li><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-091130.mp3">Ep. 166: Multiverses</a></strong></li>
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<div id="transcript">
<a name="transcript"><br />
<h3>Transcript: Multiverses</h3>
<p></a><strong><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/transcripts/AstroCast-091130_transcript.pdf">Download the transcript</a></strong></p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Astronomy Cast Episode 166 for Monday November 30, 2009, Multiverses. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. My name is Fraser Cain, I&#8217;m the publisher of Universe Today, and with me is Dr. Pamela Gay, a professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Hello Pamela&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Hey Fraser&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> In this universe&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> How&#8217;s it going?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Good! So, we&#8217;re in our single universe, but today, perhaps, we&#8217;ll find other universes. Now before we did, I want to embarrass you&#8230; no, it&#8217;s cool. I encourage anyone with a computer&#8230; go check out Wikipedia for &#8220;Uranus.&#8221; And in there, under the nomenclature, is how to pronounce the name of that planet. Someone has kindly included a quote from Pamela which is quite funny. So, yeah, if you get a chance, check out Wikipedia&#8217;s article on Uranus and go down to the nomenclature part&#8230; or search for Pamela&#8217;s name&#8230; and you&#8217;ll see this really funny bit where they kept&#8230; uh, yeah, anyway, it&#8217;s hilarious, so take a look at it. Ok, so&#8230; which is very bizarre because it&#8217;s sorta like the universe folding in on itself&#8230; the fact that you&#8217;re there on Wikipedia, and we use Wikipedia&#8230; I&#8217;m about to go crazy. What if our universe was just one in an infinite number of parallel universes&#8230; a possible outcome from the predictions of quantum mechanics. The idea of multiple universes is common in science fiction, but is there any actual science to back this theory up? Alright Pamela, so when I&#8217;m thinking of multiple universes, I&#8217;m thinking Star Trek&#8230; you know, the &#8220;mirror episode&#8221; where everyone&#8217;s got a beard. That is a whole other universe&#8230; they&#8217;re all evil, and they&#8217;ve all got a little goatee&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Spock with a goatee&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Yeah, that&#8217;s how you can tell that they&#8217;re different, that they come from a whole other universe where it makes sense for Vulcans to sport facial hair&#8230; So what, would you say, is sort of a traditional description of a multiple universe?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Well, sadly, just as a multiverse theory predicts multiple universes, there are multiple multiverse theories&#8230; so we have multiple&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Of course, it predicts multiple multiverses&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yeah, it&#8217;s nesting dolls.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right, but when people talk about parallel universes, multiverses, what are they talking about?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> The two basic schools of thought&#8211;and they&#8217;re not mutually exclusive&#8211;are that on one hand, our universe is just one of many universes out there&#8230; each one with their own initial conditions, each one perhaps with their own rules of physics&#8230; In some case, maybe two electrons actually attract each other, perhaps somewhere gravity is a repulsive force&#8230; perhaps somewhere Spock wears a beard&#8230; But then the other multiverse base idea is every time a decision is made, there&#8217;s a splitting of the universe and there&#8217;s some other universe where that other decision is made.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right. So, it&#8217;s like every time there&#8217;s a probability&#8230; you roll the dice&#8230; or, you flip a coin and in our universe the coin comes up heads&#8230; and that creates a splitting off of the universe where a coin comes up tails.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yes.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Ok, well let&#8217;s go over the first one first then&#8230; So, we could imagine&#8230; I guess it&#8217;s the equivalent of multiple houses, right? In our house we have two adults, two children&#8211; boy and a girl ages 6 and 8. You go over to someone else&#8217;s house and maybe there&#8217;s a couple in their 60s with the kids all moved out of the house. Each universe is its own separate house, and obviously the rules are very different&#8230; the rules of physics would be very different, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Right. And so of course there&#8217;s always the how do you get to those different rules of physics problem.  And this is where theorists get involved.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> And I guess part of the problem is that since we don&#8217;t know where our universe came from, it&#8217;s very hard to then predict if you could get other ones, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> And even more to the point is that many scientists are very uncomfortable with the idea that we live in a special place, that we live in a special time, how is it that we live in a special universe that is capable of generating life? And so one of the things that we have is what&#8217;s called the anthropic principle which says we live in a universe that seems to be finely tuned to life. And there&#8217;s three basic escape routes from fine tuning&#8230; one is that it&#8217;s actually fine tuned&#8230; there is a God&#8230; we can&#8217;t prove this&#8230; move on, science loses. This is an uncomfortable one. None of us like anything we can&#8217;t test, so we move on. The second part of the anthropic principle is that there is some sort of underlying physics, some set of equations that if we only know that set of equations then the entire universe makes sense. We haven&#8217;t found it yet. And we hope that when we do, that set of physics that&#8217;s so perfectly fits together that there could be no alternative also says that we have to live in a universe that just happens to have life. Still uncomfortable! The third solution that gets us out of the &#8220;how did we end up in a finely-tuned universe&#8221; is to say that we&#8217;re just one of a whole lot of universes, perhaps even an infinite number of universes. And if you roll the dice enough times, every possibility comes into existence somewhere. And while the majority of the universes out there may lead to death or at least lack of life, the fact that we live in one that does allow life to occur is just a fluke of being the tail end of the number distribution.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right. I think of this as, well, imagine this nothingness&#8230; and you wait a very, very, very, very, very long time, and perhaps particles can pop into being every now and then. A particle pops into being and disappears&#8230; perhaps something bigger a trillion years later pops into being, or an infinite number of years later and eventually, if you&#8217;ve got enough time, everything will&#8230; with an infinite amount of time, anything&#8217;s possible. And so you&#8217;ll eventually get a universe. And then maybe as you said, there was an infinite number of universes that came before us, and an infinite number of universes that will come after us. And it was just a matter of time before the one that we ended up with happened. So those other ones might still be out there expanding or contracting&#8230; or gravity&#8217;s repulsive and whichever laws get written into the program or into the blueprint of the universe are what everything has to deal with from that point on.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> And one of the ways that this gets described is as a cosmic foam with all the universes bubbling up and sometimes quickly ending, sometimes living a few trillion years, sometimes maybe living much, much longer. But there&#8217;s this cosmic foam of bubbling boiling universes popping in and out of existence.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> But when you think of it as a cosmic foam, you kind of think of it being spatially connected, right? You know, you&#8217;ve got this foam, and this bubble&#8217;s on top of that bubble, and that bubble&#8217;s over there&#8230; But I think that that is maybe not very helpful because with that whole concept of multiple universes, as long as you can open up an interdimensional portal to get from one to the other, they are beyond all reach&#8230; in theory.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Right, and this is where it gets ugly&#8230; we have all these universes and we have this wonderful theory, or at least this theory that gets rid of the necessity of us living someplace special, and all these universes are, as far as we can tell, completely out of reach of one another. Now, there are some ideas that maybe they can gravitationally touch. There&#8217;s the rather disturbing idea that if they touch a little bit too violently, everything ceases to exist, and we hope that one doesn&#8217;t happen.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right, so I guess that&#8217;s where there&#8217;s two schools of thought. One is that each universe is its own separate entity&#8230; completely and totally cut off from everyone else&#8230; it is a single moment of creation and expansion or contraction or whatever&#8230; whatever it does&#8230; ice cream doesn&#8217;t make you fat&#8230; you know, whatever you need to be in that universe that happens&#8230; But, it is completely and totally cut off from the other one, and that one is completely and totally cut off from the other one, and so scientifically, there is no way to tell if these other universes exist because they are in all ways detached from us.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Right.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> And so this is what you&#8217;re saying is that there are those people who think there is some playground where all these universes sit within, and they do interact.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Right. And the question is how do they interact? Where we keep landing is that they interact by occasionally eating each other. But potentially they interact in a much friendlier way which is they interact by touching and merging and you have one universe essentially rippling across the other, replacing the other one&#8217;s physics, which if you&#8217;re in the winning universe is a good thing, and if you&#8217;re in the losing universe it&#8217;s the Neverending Story&#8217;s big Nothing coming to consume you. It&#8217;s interesting to think about. We&#8217;re not sure how to test it, though.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right, and so where does that come from? That comes from string theory, right?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> It comes in part from string theory and in part from other forms of theoretical physics. In string theory, there&#8217;s what we call M-Theory. This is where we consider universes as arising from two different branes colliding with one another.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Not brain like human brain, but brane like membrane.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Right. And so what they&#8217;re saying, and I have to admit that a lot of this is just words to me, the math is extremely complicated and they don&#8217;t have good ways to visualize it yet, because it&#8217;s kinda hard to visualize something that is eleven dimensions if you&#8217;re in one way, or twenty-six dimensions if you&#8217;re in another.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right. And forget about testing it.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yeah. And so the words are that when two p-branes&#8230; which I just love the idea of naming something a p-brane&#8230; when two p-branes collide, it creates a d-brane and a universe is on the surface of this d-brane.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Whoa&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yeah&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> So can you&#8230; so then what would a p-brane be? A proto-universe? Like not a universe yet? You know, like if I put a wheel and handles and shifters and a seat&#8230; and when I put them together I get a bike&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Right, so this is where I have to admit that branes are one of those things that is a mathematical concept of basically the idea that particles exist in more dimensions than those that we experience. We experience three spatial dimensions and time. When you start expanding the way you view particles into these extra dimensions, you can end up with membranes across these multiple dimensions. Here, a membrane is a 2-dimensional surface that may have a non-flat geometry to it in our reality. Well, a p-brane is one of these multidimensional membranes that expands through the same space that strings occupy.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> And I guess this is&#8230; one of the proofs of this&#8230; one of the ways to test this, maybe, is&#8230; isn&#8217;t this one of the reasons why gravity is so strangely weak?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yes.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> The gravity is actually extending out of our universe&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Across all these different&#8230;  right&#8230; and so that gets kind of, well, ugly.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Well, sure&#8230; so, ok.. so I can kind of imagine then that you&#8217;ve got these membranes floating around in some cosmic sandbox, and it&#8217;s the interactions of them which are creating universes with different rules. So you might have one set of rules&#8230; it&#8217;s almost like DNA, right? You have one set of rules coming from one membrane and a different set of rules coming from another membrane, and it&#8217;s the mixture creates a universe and its rules.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yes, exactly.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> And so would that then define that there is an underlying set of rules that you can play with&#8230; you don&#8217;t have an infinite number of things that are possible, you have a finite based on&#8230; just like one of my children isn&#8217;t going to have wings because I can&#8217;t bring wings to the table in my DNA, and neither can my wife.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Well, one of the crazier notions out there that is as legitimate as any other idea out there, is that anything you can describe mathematically&#8230; anything you can describe mathematically&#8230; any theory of anything can happen in a multiverse. This is a theory that comes originally from Tegmark. It basically throws out the notion of&#8230; if you can mathematically describe your child having wings, which I think you could do&#8230; it would be a bit strange looking, but might make for a good genetically-induced Halloween costume&#8230;. that can happen. So, this is the ultimate ensemble hypothesis. Tegmark basically points out that there&#8217;s really no reason to limit anything, and that it&#8217;s conceivable that parallel universe theories can basically sum up any of the other multiverse ideas&#8230; can go in new directions&#8230; and we&#8217;re only limited by the fact that in a given geometry, two plus two should equal four.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> So if the math doesn&#8217;t work, then you wouldn&#8217;t be able to get that to be physically possible. Like when I was in computer science there was this&#8230; some of you are going to know what I&#8217;m talking about&#8230; there was this mathematical problem where there&#8217;re these bridges in these parts of the city and you have to be able to walk across the bridges to different parts of the city. It&#8217;s not possible, it&#8217;s not solvable&#8230; it can&#8217;t be done. There&#8217;s a certain way that you can&#8217;t go back on you&#8217;re own route. So a city where that was possible&#8230; where you could follow one path and go over the bridges&#8230; it can&#8217;t exist, because that is mathematically not possible.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> It&#8217;s sort of like trying to fly from Washington D.C. to Venice, I&#8217;ve discovered recently.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right, it&#8217;s not possible, yeah&#8230; And so, if two plus two equals four, so we cannot have a universe where two plus two equals five. But we can have a universe as long as those underlying mathematical requirements are kept, then everything is fine&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> And we even have theories that help us understand&#8211;as much as you can understand anything that&#8217;s not testable scientifically&#8211;where these multiple universes might have arisen. This is where we start looking at some of the work by Andrei Linde, looking at inflationary theory. Where we can imagine that while inflation stopped in our universe at a specific moment that led to the universe where we live and breathe and experience and observe, we&#8217;re only one pocket. And there are other pockets of universe out there that either stopped inflating sooner or kept inflating and maybe spawned one off of another. This is where we start getting into a chaotic inflation theory, cosmic inflation theories. Different ideas of space expanding into different places with different physical parameters inside of them. You can envision it almost as the splitting of eggs that leads to twins in embryonic expansion.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right. And the only way to figure that out, I guess, is to be able to look right out to the very edge of the visible universe, and maybe see the edge of some place where the laws of the physics are going all screwy.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Well, the neat part about this idea is just like the splitting of eggs leads to twins leads to two&#8211;hopefully&#8211;completely separate bodies, you can actually end up with these pockets of universe breaking away and forming different bubbles of different sets of physical rules that perhaps have symmetry-breaking occurring in different ways where perhaps the ratio of matter to anti-matter is radically different, where all these other things that we rely on occur in slightly different ways and the space just broke off and continued in its own reality.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> So its possible that our own universe began when we broke off&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Dropped like an acorn&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Dropped like an acorn from that inflationary foam somewhere&#8230; ok, so what does quantum mechanics tell us about multiple universes?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> This is a completely different way of getting at it. With quantum mechanics, it&#8217;s at every moment that a decision is made, the other decision is made, too. If any of you have read Kelly McCullough&#8217;s WebMage series, he actually has this idea tied up in his books and I highly recommend the Webmage series&#8230; they&#8217;re a quick, easy holiday read. Imagine that in one universe you got out of bed, and coffee was already made by your loving partner. In another universe, you get up and the cat has left you a dead mouse beside the bed. Both these possibilities, if you own a cat and have a significant other, are a reality every day in some universe. Anything that could happen, does happen somewhere. This means that if in this universe I spilled my coffee on myself on my way to work, there&#8217;s another universe where I spilled my coffee but missed my clothing, in another universe where I didn&#8217;t spill my coffee at all, and another universe where I left my coffee on the counter&#8230; anything that could happen does happen.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right, and I guess if we could zero right in all the way to the simplest situation, you have a particle&#8230; a radioactive particle&#8230; that could decay, and if it does decay&#8230; in one universe it does decay and in another universe it doesn&#8217;t decay&#8230; and then you&#8217;ve got two universes. In one it did, and in one it didn&#8217;t. You can build all of these different probabilities&#8230; coins tossing, dice rolling, getting a raise, spilling your coffee&#8230; all that kinda stuff&#8230; all of these things that seem like it could go either one way or another. It&#8217;s kinda strange, once again, as a whole other physical universe being created, what&#8217;s the mechanism that makes that happen?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> And where does the energy come from? Where does the mass come from? It&#8217;s this idea of everything just sort of splitting&#8230;. well, right&#8230; where did it go?
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> So why then did anyone even come up with this idea? Doesn&#8217;t it play into some of the questions that quantum mechanics comes up with?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> It comes from the fact that we observe particles&#8230; electrons&#8230; if you fire a single electron at a pair of slits and watch where it lands on the other side, it doesn&#8217;t behave the way a BB would. It&#8217;s somehow able to interact with itself, and if you do this enough times, you get the exact same result as if you fire a thousand electrons all at once at these two slits. Part of the way this is explained is each electron does every single possible thing every single time it goes through, it&#8217;s just the universe splitting and we&#8217;re only able to see one of the ways the electron goes through the pair of slits. And that&#8217;s just a little creepy.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Ok, so then what evidence is there that any of this is true?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yeah, we&#8217;re kinda missing the evidence thing&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right&#8230; so there is no evidence whatsoever&#8230; no hard evidence right now that either the quantum foam&#8230; the multiple universes&#8230; brane theory&#8230; quantum theory creating multiple universes&#8230; none of that&#8230; there&#8217;s no evidence that&#8217;s been found&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> There&#8217;s no evidence&#8230; there&#8217;s no test&#8230; at least there&#8217;s no believable evidence&#8230; there&#8217;s a few people that claim that a cold spot in the cosmic microwave background is evidence, but it&#8217;s not a mainstream idea.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right. But there are some experiments, some tests&#8230; like with gravity, right? Some people have talked about the fact that you might be able to detect how the branes are transferring gravity&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> But right now, there&#8217;s no way to run those tests and differentiate the results from well&#8230; gravity&#8217;s just not that strong&#8230; deal with it.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> So, it&#8217;s going to take more tests than we can currently perform, and that&#8217;s where it gets problematic.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Yeah, yeah&#8230; absolutely.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Problematic is probably the understatement of the year&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right, so then what do you think? I almost never ask you this&#8230; I think we have opinions on aliens, we have opinions on humans vs. robotic space flight&#8230; what does your gut tell you about all this?  Which is of course worthless.. don&#8217;t trust your gut&#8230; I&#8217;m going to completely ignore anything you say and mock you about it later&#8230; But for now, what do you think?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> I don&#8217;t think the constant splitting of the universe with every decision is happening.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right&#8230; so you sort of feel that quantum mechanics, as bizarre as it is, is perfectly fine within the physics of our existing universe&#8230; there&#8217;s no need to manufacture other universes to explain quantum weirdness&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> It&#8217;s just probability functions&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Now, when it comes down to &#8220;Are we the only universe out there?&#8221;&#8230; that one&#8230; my gut is torn in half&#8230; which isn&#8217;t a good thing to do to a gut&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> No&#8230;
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> No&#8230; smells kinda bad&#8230;.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Right&#8230; so where are the two parts of you coming down on?
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> I&#8217;m really torn between the chaotic inflation theory&#8230; the idea that inflation caused a variety of bubble universes with different physical parameters to exist out there. And the idea that there&#8217;s some underlying physics so perfect that it doesn&#8217;t allow the universe to exist in any other way&#8230;. I don&#8217;t see an intermediate solution of&#8230; well we have physics that works&#8230; it&#8217;s ugly, but it works. Yeah, something else could&#8217;ve happened, but this is the way it happened and this is the only universe. That, I don&#8217;t see happening. But, the idea that it&#8217;s either some form of chaotic inflation with multiple universes out there, or some form of as yet unattainable meshing of equations that doesn&#8217;t allow for other possibilities&#8230; those are the two things that have me torn in half. Depending on the mood that I&#8217;m in, you&#8217;ll get more favor of one over the other.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> I think that for me, and this is an argument that I read a little while ago, that the universe is actually not very suitable for life&#8230; there are tiny little portions of the universe that are possibly suitable for life&#8230; and we&#8217;ve found one&#8230; and that the vast amount of the universe is completely unsuitable for life and actually quite hostile to life. So it more makes me feel like that this is a universe that was just barely good enough for life that life was able to take hold&#8230; that we happened to have gravity&#8230; it was strong&#8230; or weak, but not too weak and not too strong&#8230; and I think about, as I sit here chilly in my downstairs office, that I could live in Hawaii right now&#8230; that would be nice&#8230; you know, if everywhere on Earth was more like Hawaii&#8230; that would be a universe that was more conducive to life&#8230; as opposed to me living in Canada which is right on the edge of being conducive to life, and I think that&#8217;s the theme across the whole universe&#8230; that we do&#8230; those of you in Hawaii, whom I&#8217;m very jealous of&#8230; are like&#8230; yeah, this is the perfect universe&#8230;. we couldn&#8217;t ask for anything more&#8230; I&#8217;m going to eat another breadfruit&#8230; but for us here in Canada it&#8217;s right on the ragged edge of it being comfortable for life. I think that for me I kinda like the idea of universes popping into existence, and each one having some random mixture of laws and of physics and eventually you get one that sticks, and that&#8217;s the one we happen to end up in. I like that. And as you often say, this is as much a philosophy question as it is a science question&#8230; probably more.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Yes. Now there are scientists that are working on this&#8230; Larry Susskind, Andrei Linde, there&#8217;s some really great work out there.
</p>
<p><b>Fraser:</b> Brian Greene, Michio Kaku&#8230; there’s a lot of&#8230; and popularization of it&#8230; I wouldn&#8217;t be surprised if in a couple of years someone says hey, I figured out a test for detecting multiple universes&#8230; or string theory, or whatever&#8230; we just need better instruments&#8230;  Alright, well in this universe, Pamela, I thank you very much for covering it and we&#8217;ll talk to you next time.
</p>
<p><b>Pamela:</b> Sounds good, Fraser, I&#8217;ll talk to you later.</p>
<p>
</p>
</div>
<p><small>This transcript is not an exact match to the audio file. It has been edited for clarity. </small></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div style="clear: both;"></div>
<p></p>
<div id="shownotes">
<a name="shownotes"><br />
<h3>Show Notes</h3>
<p></a></p>
<ul />
<li><a href="http://www.astrosciences.info/Multiverse.htm">Multiverses </a>&#8211; AstroScience</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2009/10/15/if-we-live-in-a-multiverse-how-many-are-there/">If We Live in a Mulitverse, How Many are There?</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_parallel_universe">Does the Multiverse Provide a Theory of Everything? </a>&#8211; Suite 101</li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBrIBs3YRWI">Video with Dr. Michio Kaku on the Multiverse</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/tag/mulitiverse/">Parallel Universe</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/13/thinking-about-time-before-the-big-bang/">Thinking About Time Before the Big Bang</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHY_c4yi5cE">Videos on String Theory and Multiple Universes with physicists  Brian Cox and Leonard Suskind</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle">Anthropic Principle</a> &#8212; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://www.superstringtheory.com/">String Theory -</a>- The Official String Theory Website</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory">M-Theory</a> &#8212; Wiki</li>
<li>M-Theory &#8212; <a href="http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/jhs/strings/str154.html">Caltech</a></li>
<li><a href="http://solar.physics.montana.edu/scott/strings/p_brane.html">P-Brane</a> &#8212; Solar Physics</li>
<li><a href="http://www.theory.caltech.edu/people/jhs/strings/str155.html">D-Brane </a>&#8211; Caltech</li>
<li><a href="http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=29648">M-Theory and the Multiverse </a>&#8211; Discussion on Physics Forums</li>
<li><a href="http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/97626-multiverse-exploration.html">Multiverse Explorations</a> &#8212; Discussion on the BAUT Forum</li>
<li><a href="http://phys.educ.ksu.edu/">Visual Quantum Mechanics (</a>intro to quantum physics) &#8212; KSU</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics">Quantum Mechanics </a>&#8211; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/ask/a11792.html">Quantum Foam </a>&#8211; Astronomy Cafe</li>
<li><a href="http://www.amazon.com/WebMage-Ravirn-Book-Kelly-McCullough/dp/0441014259">Webmage books by Kelly McCullough</a></li>
</div>
<div id="transcript">
<h3><a name="transcript">Transcript</a></h3>
<p>Coming Soon!
</p></div>
<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/12/ep-166-multiverses/' addthis:title='Ep. 166: Multiverses '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-091130.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>What if our universe was just one in an infinite number of parallel universes; a possible outcome from the specific predictions of quantum mechanics. The idea of multiple universes is common in science fiction,</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>What if our universe was just one in an infinite number of parallel universes; a possible outcome from the specific predictions of quantum mechanics. The idea of multiple universes is common in science fiction, but is there any actual science to back this theory up?




Ep. 166: Multiverses

Jump to Shownotes
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Transcript: MultiversesDownload the transcript

Fraser: Astronomy Cast Episode 166 for Monday November 30, 2009, Multiverses. Welcome to Astronomy Cast, our weekly facts-based journey through the cosmos, where we help you understand not only what we know, but how we know what we know. My name is Fraser Cain, I&#039;m the publisher of Universe Today, and with me is Dr. Pamela Gay, a professor at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Hello Pamela...
Pamela: Hey Fraser...
Fraser: In this universe...
Pamela: How&#039;s it going?
Fraser: Good! So, we&#039;re in our single universe, but today, perhaps, we&#039;ll find other universes. Now before we did, I want to embarrass you... no, it&#039;s cool. I encourage anyone with a computer... go check out Wikipedia for &quot;Uranus.&quot; And in there, under the nomenclature, is how to pronounce the name of that planet. Someone has kindly included a quote from Pamela which is quite funny. So, yeah, if you get a chance, check out Wikipedia&#039;s article on Uranus and go down to the nomenclature part... or search for Pamela&#039;s name... and you&#039;ll see this really funny bit where they kept... uh, yeah, anyway, it&#039;s hilarious, so take a look at it. Ok, so... which is very bizarre because it&#039;s sorta like the universe folding in on itself... the fact that you&#039;re there on Wikipedia, and we use Wikipedia... I&#039;m about to go crazy. What if our universe was just one in an infinite number of parallel universes... a possible outcome from the predictions of quantum mechanics. The idea of multiple universes is common in science fiction, but is there any actual science to back this theory up? Alright Pamela, so when I&#039;m thinking of multiple universes, I&#039;m thinking Star Trek... you know, the &quot;mirror episode&quot; where everyone&#039;s got a beard. That is a whole other universe... they&#039;re all evil, and they&#039;ve all got a little goatee...
Pamela: Spock with a goatee...
Fraser: Yeah, that&#039;s how you can tell that they&#039;re different, that they come from a whole other universe where it makes sense for Vulcans to sport facial hair... So what, would you say, is sort of a traditional description of a multiple universe?
Pamela: Well, sadly, just as a multiverse theory predicts multiple universes, there are multiple multiverse theories... so we have multiple...
Fraser: Of course, it predicts multiple multiverses...
Pamela: Yeah, it&#039;s nesting dolls.
Fraser: Right, but when people talk about parallel universes, multiverses, what are they talking about?
Pamela: The two basic schools of thought--and they&#039;re not mutually exclusive--are that on one hand, our universe is just one of many universes out there... each one with their own initial conditions, each one perhaps with their own rules of physics... In some case, maybe two electrons actually attract each other, perhaps somewhere gravity is a repulsive force... perhaps somewhere Spock wears a beard... But then the other multiverse base idea is every time a decision is made, there&#039;s a splitting of the universe and there&#039;s some other universe where that other decision is made.
Fraser: Right. So, it&#039;s like every time there&#039;s a probability... you roll the dice... or, you flip a coin and in our universe the coin comes up heads... and that creates a splitting off of the universe where a coin comes up tails.
Pamela: Yes. 
Fraser: Ok, well let&#039;s go over the first one first then... So, we could imagine... I guess it&#039;s the equivalent of multiple houses, right? In our house we have two adults, two children-- boy and a girl ages 6 and 8. You go over to someone else&#039;s house and maybe there&#039;s a couple in their 60s with the kids all moved out of the house.</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
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		<title>Ep. 137: Large Scale Structure of the Universe</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-137-large-scale-structure-of-the-universe/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-137-large-scale-structure-of-the-universe/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 17:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astronomycast.com/?p=743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This week we’re going to think big. Bigger than big. We’re going to consider the biggest things in the Universe. If you could pull way back, and examine regions of space billions of light-years across, what would you see? How is the Universe arranged at the largest scale? And more importantly… why? Ep. 137: Large [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-137-large-scale-structure-of-the-universe/' addthis:title='Ep. 137: Large Scale Structure of the Universe '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div id="attachment_744" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 160px"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-744" title="Evolution of the large scale structure of the Universe. Image credit: NASA" src="http://www.astronomycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/largescale-150x150.jpg" alt="Evolution of the large scale structure of the Universe. Image credit: NASA" width="150" height="150" /><p class="wp-caption-text">Evolution of the large scale structure of the Universe. Image credit: NASA</p></div>
<p>This week we’re going to think big. Bigger than big. We’re going to consider the biggest things in the Universe. If you could pull way back, and examine regions of space billions of light-years across, what would you see? How is the Universe arranged at the largest scale? And more importantly… why?</p>
<p><span id="more-743"></span><!--more--></p>
<table>
<tr>
<td>
<li><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090511.mp3">Ep. 137: Large Scale Structure of the Universe</a></strong></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div style="clear: both;"></div>
<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/localgr.html">Local Group of Galaxies</a> &#8212; Atlas of the Universe</li>
<li><a href="http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap080913.html">Triangulum Galaxy</a> &#8212; APOD</li>
<li><a href="http://www.noao.edu/image_gallery/html/im0424.html">Andromeda Galaxy</a> &#8212; NOAO</li>
<li><a href="http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/gclusters/gclusters.html">Groups, Clusters and Superclusters</a> &#8212; UTK</li>
<li><a href="http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/virgo.html">Virgo Supercluster </a>&#8211; Atlas of the Universe</li>
<li><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12546">The biggest void in space is 1 billion lightyears across</a> &#8212; New Scientist</li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/mission/sgoals_parameters_spect.html">Sound waves/ compression waves in the early Universe </a>&#8211; WMAP</li>
<li><a href="http://www.sdss.org/">Sloan Digital Sky Survey</a></li>
<li><a href="http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/astro/cosmos/R/Ram+Pressure+Stripping">Ram Pressure Stripping </a>&#8211; Swinburne Astronomy</li>
<li><a href="http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/T/tidal_tail.html">Tidal Tails</a> &#8212; Internet Encyclopedia of Science</li>
<li><a href="http://seds.org/messier/m/m087">Elliptical galaxy M87</a> &#8212; SEDS</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2009/05/29/astronomers-observe-formation-of-largest-bound-structures-in-the-universe/">Astronomers Observe Formation of Largest Bound Structures in the Universe</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=17">Planck Telescope</a></li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/">WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/">James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.lsst.org/lsst">Large Synoptic Survey Telescope (LSST) </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.galaxyzoo.org/">Galaxy Zoo</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Videos:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://ifa.hawaii.edu/~barnes/transform.html">Videos from Josh Barnes of the University of Hawaii &#8212; Galaxy Transformations</a></li>
<li><a href="http://astro.uchicago.edu/cosmus/projects/sloangalaxies/animations.html">Movies from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey and WMAP</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Papers:</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0207285">Large Scale Structures from Galaxy and Cluster Surveys</a></li>
<li><a href="http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0207140">Analyzing Large Scale Structure</a></li>
<li><a href="http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0206430">Gamma Rays from the Large Scale Structures of the Universe</a></li>
<li><a href="http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0206301">Large Scale Structure in the SDSS Survey</a></li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: Large Scale Structure of the Universe</h3>
<p><strong>Download the transcript</strong></p>
<p><strong>Fraser Cain:</strong> Quantum Mechanics.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay: </strong>Yup the subject that puts dread in the hearts of many, many an undergraduate.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Isn’t that like there’s only three people in the world who understand quantum mechanics?  Or is it no anyone who tells me they understand quantum mechanics doesn’t understand quantum mechanics?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>I think string theory there’s only three people who can do the math.  With quantum mechanics there are lots of people that can work the equations but in terms of being able to completely internalize it and have their stomach do it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s like kinematics.  Your stomach can to kinematics.  Your stomach knows you drop a ball. It’s going to land on the ground. Quantum mechanics, every molecule in your body is going un-uh don’t believe it. [Laughter]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Alright but you’re getting ahead of us here.  So let me do my official introduction and we can go from there. Quantum mechanics is the study of the very tiny; the nature of the reality of the smallest scale.  It is a science that defies common sense and delivers no helpful analogies. Yet it delivers the goods making scientific predictions with incredible accuracy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Let’s look into the history of quantum theory and then struggle to comprehend its connection to the universe. There, so if I was [laughter] to go and find some physicists and corner them and say – oh, I’ve got one right now – and say what’s quantum mechanics? [Laughter] What kind of answer would I get?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>I think the most straightforward description of it is: a way to using equations that work, describe just about everything as simultaneously being a wave and a particle while making your head really hurt.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay, depending on how big their ego is and how well they think they understand it it’s a way mathematically.  What kind of things can you mathematically describe with quantum theory?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The entire spectrum of an atom can be described in very detailed ways using quantum mechanics.  I can go out and use a telescope to observe hydrogen in many different states all across the universe.  I can understand the 21 centimeter line as a very rare flipping of an electron.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I can understand the different emission lines that come from hydrogen gas that’s heated to different temperatures as a function of the electrons jumping from one energy level to another.  I can understand how light gets absorbed by gases and scattered in different directions and how lasers and masers work.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">All of that comes out of quantum mechanics.  I can very precisely come up with all sorts of crazy numbers that describe how molecules vibrate. It all works.  That’s the amazing crazy part about this is it all works.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, if you plug in the numbers you get an accurate description of reality even though what’s actually going on is defying logic at every turn. How did quantum mechanics come about?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It basically came about from I think this was the original case of someone doing an experiment, having something really crazy come out of it and sitting in their chair and letting out a string of expletives.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There were things like if you shoot an incredibly intense beam of red light at a metal plate.  The metal plate goes yeah, so, okay and does nothing.  But if you shoot higher energy blue light at that same plate you can get electrons getting shot off. The thing is you don’t even have to use as intense a blue light.  The intensity of the light seemed to have nothing to do with what was going on. It had to do with the color of the light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This was finally explained by Einstein with what we call the photoelectric effect where suddenly the light was no longer this continuous intense sea of energy but rather it was discrete packets where the amount of energy in each individual packet was related to the color.  That was a revolutionary idea. It forced us to change how we think of things.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">All of a sudden it was no longer light spreading out in this thinning sea as it radiates away from the sun.  Rather it is a bunch of individual photons where the space in-between the photons increases as you get further and further away and the light is forced to spread itself out over a greater and greater area.  All of this was new.  Most fundamentally, the idea that light could only have certain energies.  That was something completely expected that turned out to again be completely true.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> How did the first early physicists wrestle with this?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> There were lots of different things that they had to figure out.  The first thing that probably got sorted out is that electrons can be bent with electromagnetic forces have very small masses.  When they hit fluorescent screens they can give off light.  A cathode ray tube was one of the first experiments that forced us to start thinking about electrons as discreet little packets and starting to understand how they worked.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What’s going on in the CRT?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Basically you accelerate an electron and we didn’t know that this is what we were doing the first time scientists started doing this.  You create as complete a vacuum as you can. Then you do various things that cause electrons to be created.  You accelerate them through charged plates, through capacitors.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then by adjusting magnetic fields you can change where on a fluorescent fluorescing plate that electron hits.  By adjusting magnetic fields in the electric fields that you’re using in this system you can actually measure the mass of an electron.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When we first measured it and realized that it was fractions, thousandths of the mass of an atom we realized, wow electrons are these discreet little tiny particles that are extremely small but look at the things we can do with them.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> But where does the quantum mechanics part of it come into that story?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Once we started thinking of things as little tiny here we have an electron, here we have photons, we started probing what is the structure of the atom.  It was originally thought that atoms were basically – it was the plum pudding model where you had the protons and the electrons all kind of randomly globbed together.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There were experiments done where beams of electrons were sent into a gold foil.  Had the structure of the atom been a plum pudding basically, where you have these randomized plums – the electrons and protons – randomly scattered through the atom you would have gotten one set of the way the electrons get reflected as they go through the gold foil.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Instead what we saw was a scattering that could only be explained if the protons and neutrons were concentrated in a very small nuclei surrounded by a huge swarm of an electron cloud.  This started making us think about what is it the electrons are doing if they’re orbiting?  There were problems with if the electrons are orbiting why aren’t they constantly radiating energy?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They’re constantly accelerating because they’re moving in a circle.  This started to become very problematical.  It was in trying to sort out that problem and in looking at the allowed wavelengths of light where we also ran into problems there of as the wavelength gets shorter and shorter the amount of energy should go to infinity. All of a sudden we have warm objects giving off infinite amounts of light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is the ultraviolet catastrophe.  It’s the way it was referred to back in the days before we really knew about x-rays and gamma rays.  In trying to sort out all these different problems people eventually settled on the well we can solve this if we start looking at energy as being quantized, of there being certain limited values allowed where you can’t have an infinitely small wavelength.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Eventually you just run out and things go to zero in the ultraviolet.  So the energy goes to zero and the wavelength becomes infinitely small.  We were able to solve these problems by doing something extremely unsatisfying and saying energy is discreet and can only have certain given values.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> When you say energy is discreet and can only have certain given values this is the quantum part of quantum mechanics, right that energy comes in packets of a very specific amount.  That’s a quanta, right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yes and this is where we say energy is equal to a constant times the frequency of the light. It’s that constant that’s always in there and never goes to zero that gives us the: you’re only allowed certain values.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Then the smallest theoretical amount of light you can have is one packet, right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> So you get zero and then you get one but you can’t have fractions between.  That’s good because if you had fractions you would have an infinite amount of energy pouring out.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yes and we don’t so we’re fine.  Then we also started having all these other weird things.  De Broglie was one of the ones who noticed that electrons have wavelengths too.  We were not happy but could almost cope with the concept that light is both a particle and a wave.  It has no mass, it acts in weird ways, it hurts but okay we can move on from this.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then we started realizing as a field – and I wasn’t born yet – that electrons which have mass also can have wavelengths and can interfere with each other.  One of the things we knew is you can take beams of light and send them through slits and get amazing patterns on the wall, interference and diffraction patterns. This has to do with the wave nature of light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The same way waves going through rocks going towards the shore you can end up with a completely straight wave hitting these rocks turning into perfect sections of a circle radiating away from the slit through the rocks.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>We did a whole show on this with our wave particle duality so I know we’ve got sort of all the details on that if people want to listen to that show.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> People started doing experiments, oh dear electrons interfere as well.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>What would be the apparatus? What would be the experiment to see an electron interfere with itself?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Here’s the cool way that you do it.  If you have thin enough slits and you send beams of electrons, one electron at a time through the slit you instead of getting two perfect images of the slit on some screen in the distance – which is what your stomach would say should happen, you shine electrons on a slit they go through the slit, they hit a detector on the back, and you get an image of the slits.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Right they either get bounced because they hit the sides of the slits or they go right through the slit and you get them hitting the detector.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yes, no big deal. The reality is that when the electrons one at a time, not having anything else to deal with, but one at a time pass through these slits it’s like they know that there’s other electrons coming.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They go through and over time they’ll build up this interference pattern on the detector just as though there were a whole series of waves interfering with one another.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> You’ve got an electron going through both slits at once?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> And interfering with itself.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> And interfering with itself to create this pattern.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It’s a probability function.  This is the really weird thing.  It’s so cool and we’ll see if we can find an animation to put up on our website.  It’s so cool to watch this happen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You’ll see on your detector a flash of electron hit over to the left.  Electron hit directly in line from the slit.  Electron hit over from the right; another electron over on the slit.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They build up over time and it is one electron at a time that they build up this interference pattern. They build it up with a perfect distribution of the majority of the electrons landing where you have the highest probability.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> This is the same pattern that you see with photons but it is quite astonishing you see it with electrons, right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> And they did. This was when we started to realize that the actions of light and particles are dictated by probability.  Electrons are just like light, capable of somehow knowing hey I’m a wave I’m going through slits.  I should interfere with something and that something may be coming later. [Laughter] That’s just cool.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Yeah, now you can keep going, right?  You don’t just stop with electrons.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> No. What ends up happening is as you get to larger and larger physical objects their wavelengths start being smaller than they are.  The wavelength of a human being is way smaller than a human being.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You can’t send me through two slits and have me interfere with myself on the other end.  At a certain point you stop being able to run these experiments because the wavelength and the physical size just doesn’t quite allow that to happen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I think they’ve gone as far as like Buckyballs, right?  They’ve actually got atoms from molecules with like 60 carbon atoms and have been able to send them through and have them interfere.  It’s crazy. [Laughter]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah it doesn’t make any sense.  Then there are other consequences of quantum mechanics that we’re still rather uncomfortable with.  One of these is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.  The idea behind this one is waves carry energy in them.  They carry momentum.  As a wave is traveling through space if it hits something it can impart that momentum and do work basically.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If I want to measure the rate at which that wavelength is traveling through space and I want to measure that wavelength very, very precisely I’m kind of stuck.  I’m only able to either know its momentum very precisely or its position in space very precisely.  I’m not actually allowed to know both of these very precisely at the exact same time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The way to think about it is if I concentrate its position into a point then I no longer know anything about its wavelength.  All I know is all of the light is right at this point right now that’s all I know.  Suddenly the wavelength information is completely gone.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">But if I very carefully am able to determine its wavelength somehow what I’m looking at is the period oscillations of the electromagnetic wave.  That doesn’t have a central point.  That doesn’t have the specific position.  This means basically I can either know exactly where the wave is or I can know exactly its wavelength but don’t ask me to tell you both at the same time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Fraser:  The same thing goes with an electron going around a proton?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Exactly.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> You can know its momentum or its position?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes and you can’t know both.  This applies to lots of different ways of looking at these particles.  We have the most common way of looking at it is looking at it in terms of position momentum. We can also look at in terms of energy in position.  Energy is another way of looking at wavelength.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re trying to sort out what’s going on and we keep coming up against the well you’re not allowed to know something.  We also have once we start looking at things in terms of relativity we start running into energy and time uncertainties.  All of these things tie together and it leads to a place where we can only know half the information at any one point.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Anyone who is deeply in love with kinematics and the notion that if you know the position and velocity of everything at any one moment you can predict to the complete unfurling of the rest of the universe.  The uncertainty principle says I can’t know that.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>Right, it’s not just issues of your instruments aren’t good enough.  No instruments could ever be made good enough to know those two pieces of information at the same time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes, it’s just the universe doesn’t allow it.  It’s the way it’s wired.  There are different ways of cheating the system.  There was a really neat experiment done – the understanding of the experiment is still being debated – but the experiment itself is really cool.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you have one of these double slits and you shine light through it you get this wonderful interference pattern on a wall. You can very carefully arrange thin wires between the double slits and the wall where those wires fall in the shadows of the fringe pattern.  Putting them there doesn’t affect what you see in any way.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you put a lens between the slits and the wall the lens treats the light as though it was a bunch of particles.  As far as a lens is concerned light is a particle.  It will actually take that pretty diffraction pattern and get rid of it and make two images of the slits on the wall.  You go from pretty diffraction pattern to instead slit and slit nicely glowing like your stomach expected you to see originally.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you do this experiment putting the lens in after putting these wires in you still won’t see the wires in the pretty slits.  If you cover up one of those slits so that the interference is no longer happening suddenly in the image of that slit you didn’t cover up you can see the shadows of the wires.  So the light knows it’s no longer interfering.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and this is after it’s already gone through the slit and so you’re blocking it between the slit and the detector – the slit in the wall.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> No, you actually do block it before it goes into the slit.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Okay you block it before it goes through the slit.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Then suddenly the interference pattern is no longer there. It’s kind of creepy that you can have the light in terms of the wires knows that it’s supposed to be interfering. Then that interfering light hits the lens and suddenly goes oops I’m going to be a particle now.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You’re able to basically flip it from behaving like a wave when it is interfering with the shadows and the wire to acting like a particle as it passes through the lens.  That’s just cool.  You can mess with your own head while messing with light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I know that quantum mechanics is sort of beautiful and works really well and is very well supported by mathematics. Yet it’s a real thorn in the side of the folks trying to unite the forces of the universe, right?  It won’t behave and if you try to bring gravity down to the realm of quantum mechanics the two don’t get along.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, one of the problems that we run into is quantum mechanics is able to deal with predicting how energy is partitioned between thermal energy, between kinetic energy.  It allows us to understand how gases behave.  It allows us to understand transitions of electrons and atoms, the vibrations of molecules.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As you increase the density of the system it allows us to continue understanding what’s going on through quantum mechanics and thermodynamics getting brought together where you can start to understand that if you can pack a system dense enough like in a white dwarf star suddenly all of the electrons go okay, poly-exclusion principle.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Poly-exclusion principle says electrons have to be oriented in two different orientations as the orbit in the same energy of an atom. We call this spin-up and spin-down just because the electrons aren’t actually spinning that we know of. It’s just a convenient way of thinking of the electrons.  You can imagine it one north pole up one north pole down as they rotate.  They aren’t doing that, it’s just a way of envisioning it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you have to pack electrons tight enough suddenly it’s not just the electrons in energy levels around this atom, atoms electrons in orbits around those atoms over there.  Suddenly it’s all the electrons basically forming one lattice-work of energy levels carefully obeying the poly-exclusion principle as they form what we call a degenerate gas. All of this works with quantum mechanics.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As we continue to crank up the densities making neutron stars now suddenly it has realized oh shoot can’t have electrons and proton this close together, must combine and they combine to form neutrons.  We can explain how the energy, how the mass is all conserved and what gets shot out during the process.  We can explain neutron stars.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When you crank things up further suddenly quantum mechanics can’t explain what happens when neutrons are no longer able to exist.  When the densities get so high that even the neutrons kind of give up the ghost and say okay I’m going to be something different now so that I take up less space.  What that different thing the neutrons become to take up less space and form black holes, quantum mechanics can’t go there. Quantum mechanics has no way of addressing gravitational effects.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is one of the things that I’m hoping gets solved in my lifetime because there’s a way of viewing the universe where gravity is geometry.  There’s a way of viewing the universe where gravity is still part of particle physics where it is conducted by the flow of gravitons. We don’t know which view is fully true or if both are true.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We have geometry and particles the same way we have the particles and wavelengths. I don’t know how once we’ve discovered the Higgs-Boson and once we’ve discovered the graviton if we discover those things we’re going to describe to some future generation of physicists the way the universe is shaped.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>I guess at the same front you can’t take quantum mechanics and scale it up beyond a few collections of atoms?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> That’s where we start having to deal with what we call classical mechanics where we start describing things in bulk motions.  Suddenly things behave in ways our stomachs understand.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Right, there’s no uncertainty about the orbit of Jupiter.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Exactly.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> You can predict it in that situation it really does just come down to the quality of your instruments.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We have this weird universe where when things start moving too fast or their masses get too large suddenly we have to turn to Einstein.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then when you go the other direction and you start dealing with things that are extremely small you have to start using quantum mechanics.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In that middle land you can use Newtonian mechanics and our stomachs understand the planet Earth and most of the physics we have to deal with day to day.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> The thing that I like about quantum mechanics and I can only assume because I barely understand it is that it is one of those sciences that really defies as you say your stomach understanding.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It won’t let you intuitively progress making analogies in your mind and kind of well it ought to be like this because [laughter] this makes sense to me.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I’ve seen rocks fall and I understand how if I swing something around my head it goes in a nice circle and all that king of stuff.  Your intuition is worthless and you have to throw it out.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You have to just say I’m just going to start performing experiments and I’m going to see what the experiments tell me and I’m going to accept the results and that’s that.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I find that whole thing really refreshing because if you listen to this show we don’t have like a single analogy.  There’s nothing.  Sometimes how your mother is sometimes like a particle….no that [laughter] doesn’t work.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There are just no analogies, nothing that can help you out on this. You have to just listen to nature and listen to the experiments and follow the math.  That’s the only kind of progress that you can do.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I think that’s great because I think that so much science – although scientists really try to progress and try to be objective and just listen to their experiments and so on – a lot of that personality experience gets brought into it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is one of those situations where nobody’s got any sort of opinion on it.  I guess maybe they build up opinions about one theory and another theory but in the end really just the human being has no evolved way to deal with it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I really like quantum mechanics. We’ve got a few other topics that we wanted to really go into in this area so I think we’re going to spend a couple of shows and talk about some of the really interesting things that have come out of quantum mechanics.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One being entanglement, spooky action at a distance and we have a couple of other things we want to talk about as well, especially how it relates to astronomy so we’ll get on with that in the next couple of shows.  Thanks Pamela.</p>
<p><!-- 		@page { margin: 0.79in } 		P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser Cane:</strong> Hi Pamela, are you ready to think big?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay:</strong> I hope I am.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> This week we’re going to think really big.  Bigger than big, we’re going to consider the biggest things in the universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you can pull way back and examine regions of space billions of light years across, what would you see?  How was the universe arranged at the largest scale?  More importantly why?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Let’s think small for starters.  We’ve got the Earth going around the sun. The sun is a member of a spiral galaxy called the Milky Way, then what?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Then we belong to the local group, which is this little tiny group of galaxies.  It’s pretty much us and Andromeda and Triangulum.  It’s a little tiny system.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> This is the only time you get to describe a collection of galaxies [laughter] as tiny. Any other time gignormous I believe would be the word you would use.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right so the thing is on the grand scheme of the entire cosmos our local group, which is mostly made up of dwarf galaxies but has a few other big galaxies, like I said us, Andromeda and Triangulum are tiny compared to what’s out there.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay let’s get a sense of scale then.  How big is our local group?  Why do we call those galaxies the local group?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Gravitationally we’re all bound together.  We’re all part of basically a swarm of systems that are happily orbiting one another. They will happily one day consume one another as we grow into a bigger and bigger pile of mass with fewer and fewer discreet objects within it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Our small groups of gravitationally bound together galaxies are slowly moving toward other much larger collections of galaxies that we’ll later fall into just because their gravity is that much bigger.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Like the Milky Way we’re all kind of collected together into the local group.  I know Andromeda is like two and a half million light years away so that’s kind of the scale that we’re looking at here.  There are dozens of dwarf galaxies as well.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What are we moving towards then?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We’re on the outskirts of what is called the Virgo supercluster, which is our local supercluster. It is the big city that we are basically currently a suburb of.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As city sprawl takes over, that city is going to slowly consume us except in this case instead of the city growing bigger the city is actually gravitationally sucking us in.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re sort of falling downhill gravity-wise into this nearby supercluster.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Let’s get a sense of scale then.  We have say 50 galaxies in our local group, how big is the Virgo supercluster?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The Virgo supercluster is actually big enough that if you scroll a telescope across that section of the sky you will see about a hundred galaxy groups and clusters that are part of this super cluster.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It is us, the Virgo cluster itself.  There are other things like the Earth’s major group that are falling into it.  There is the <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">M 101 </span>group.  All of us together make up the Virgo supercluster.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Can I grab a telescope and see it?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes and that’s one of the cool parts.  You can actually go outside and see lots of superclusters.  The Virgo supercluster is probably one of the most dramatic with the Virgo cluster within it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You can also go out and you can easily see the Coma cluster.  Galaxy clusters are big enough that they can appear as easily recognized high numbers of galaxies in a concentrated region on the sky in photos and just by sweeping your telescope across the sky.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Just like the Hyades cluster appears as a definitely much denser region of stars, the Virgo and Coma clusters appear as obviously much denser regions of galaxies.  You just need a bigger telescope to see a cluster of galaxies because they’re faint.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right.  So most of the galaxies that we can see are part of the Virgo supercluster?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes, that’s one of the coolest things is we’re all basically falling together and we’re all part of one large city of galaxies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, now is the Virgo supercluster part of something even bigger?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is where we’re trying to figure out how you name things. The Virgo supercluster itself is the corner of where a bunch of different walls come together.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Our universe has evolved over time from being pretty much a solid block.  If you look back at what was the structure of the universe back in the days of the cosmic microwave background the density variations back then were very minute.  The fluctuations that we see in cosmic microwave background are just one part in thousands.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As we look today we end up seeing these huge voids of basically nothing in these really dense walls, these really dense superclusters where all of the mass has gravitationally been pulled together.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Superclusters are where the different walls come together.  The Virgo supercluster is just one place where all of these different walls come together.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Okay, I’m going to need some kind of an analogy. I’m thinking walls.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Swiss cheese.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Swiss cheese?  Bubbles, foamy bubbles.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yeah when you go to the grocery store there are all sorts of different cheese with holes.  There is cheese that has really tiny holes, the really cheap American Swiss.  Then there is the lacy Swiss cheese.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">With the lacy Swiss cheese where a bunch of different bubbles are not quite touching at their corners you end up with a lot more cheese.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then there is the wall between two bubbles and then you end up with a junction of four bubbles.  That gives you more cheese at the junction of four bubbles.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay so the holes are the air pockets, right?  So that’s the voids that we have in the universe.  Then the cheese [laughter] is the galaxies.  How big are those voids then?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The voids can be absolutely huge.  Just to give you some perspective before jumping in to the size of the voids, our own Milky Way galaxy is about 100,000 light years from edge to edge.  That’s its diameter.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Andromeda, our nearest giant neighbor is about 2 1/2 million light years away.  The Virgo supercluster is way bigger.  It is 110 million light years across. A void, a small void not a giant void, just an average run of the mill local void is 200 million light years in emptiness.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Nothing?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Nothing.  They start looking and they might find like one or two lonely galaxies inside of them but these are giant empty spaces.  Two hundred million is a small one.  They can be two or three times this size.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re finding the supervoids are more like 400 million light years side to side of pretty much absolutely nothing.  So we went from a universe that was pretty much one continuous blob of stuff with very slight, slight irregularities in the distribution of matter.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The slight places where there is a little bit more were able to gravitationally grab on to the stuff around them. The places that were a little bit less, they just sort of gave up and let themselves be torn apart gravitationally.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The places with less have gotten less and the places with more have gotten more.  In the universe, he who has more gets more.  It’s kind of unfair.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> It’s like the rich get richer, right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> The poor get poorer in terms of space.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Gravity doesn’t understand Robin Hood.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> So let’s see if I understand this.  Way back, right at the big bang there were these fluctuations in density of the newborn universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Those fluctuations in density have been expanded for billions of years so that now we have voids.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It’s just the very slight fluctuations that we see in the cosmic microwave backgrounds that these inhomogenaties at the level of one in 10,000ish.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s this slight inhomogenaties that have led to everything we see today.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Do we know why there were those differences?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This goes back to I think we actually covered this in an earlier show where there was basically sound waves moving through – and sound waves has a very physical meaning.  Sound waves are when you have compression waves moving through a medium.  There were essentially sound waves moving through the early universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The different wave lengths of those waves got frozen out where you ended up with slight over-densities and slight under-densities.  It’s much more complicated then that but that’s the simplest way of looking at it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We had waves traveling through the earlier medium and those waves got frozen out as places with higher densities and lower densities.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, I can imagine waves going across the ocean if you suddenly froze the ocean and then measured the thickness of the ocean you would have places that were thicker. You would have places that were thinner just because of where the waves were at that moment.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>In this case it is much more like measuring the density in the air where complex notes are being played by an orchestra.  All those different sounds that you’re hearing have different wavelengths and those get frozen out.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> And then the rich got richer and the poor got poorer for billions of years until here we are today.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Exactly.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Alright then if I was to sort of pull way back out and just see the whole universe?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> You can sort of do this locally with the Sloan Digital Sky Survey.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right so how many of these voids would I see?  How long would these walls be?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> What’s neat is we can actually watch the growing of the structure because as we look further and further back we’re able to see further back in time.  Light takes a finite amount of time to get from point A to point B.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When we look at nearby things we can measure tens of different voids.  We can measure tens of different superclusters.  As we look further back in time at objects that are further away and their light is taking longer and longer to get to us we start seeing fewer and fewer superclusters.  We start seeing fewer and fewer clusters themselves.  The clusters get smaller.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There have always been giant clusters.  Some of these giant clusters formed in the first billions of years of the universe but they’re continuing to grow.  They’re continuing to build and their numbers are growing over time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">While we see tens of voids the numbers and sizes of the voids drop out as you look back in time.  The numbers and sizes of the superclusters drop as you look further back in time.  We can actually see our universe evolve.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I guess the voids increasing are where you’ve got these walls of galaxies and at some point they snap because of the universe. A galaxy has to make a decision to either go left or right.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s either going to stick with these buddies or go off with those buddies and then you get a new void appearing in-between and those voids get expanded.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the things as we turn the clock forward is this process that you just described is going to make our universe go from simply being this lacy foam to actually being nothing more than isolated islands of galaxies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They are eventually basically going to turn into isolated galaxy as things cool off with time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> That was my next question is how is this all going to turn out?  Run the clock forward as you said new voids pop open they become isolated collections of galaxies these superclusters.  Then you’re saying they become galaxy?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Right.  We’re still working on the details of the model.  What’s really cool is we can actually watch these systems that are already held together to the point that the expansion of the universe has no bearing on the galaxies involved in superclusters.  They’re gravitationally held together.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Their separations are caused strictly by what their orbital size is as they orbit round and round the center of the supercluster.  Over time galaxies will sweep past each other and gravitationally glom on to each other or material will get stripped out of galaxies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There’s this whole language that is rather violent involving galaxies.  We talk about galaxy harassment where two galaxies sweep past each other.  They’re moving fast enough that they don’t actually merge into one new system but the gravitational pull of the one galaxy on the other is able to grab some stars.  It is able to grab out gas and trigger star formation.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Once that star formation is over what might have previously been a nice healthy galaxy is now a dead elliptical system.  We have what we talk about as ram-pressure stripping. As a galaxy falls into one of these superclusters it hits all the material that has been stripped out of galaxies that fell in earlier.  As it hits this material it is like getting sandblasted except at the gravitational and pressure levels. You have these systems that aren’t gravitationally able to hold on to their gas and dust in the face of getting knocked by the material that it is falling into.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In some cases the knocking triggers star formation again.  You have these complex tidal tails star formation going on.  It’s quick and when it is over the systems are dead.  You don’t find star formation in giant superclusters at the same rate that you find it in smaller systems like our own local group.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I guess we can already see the future of some of these superclusters.  There are some monstrous galaxies with trillions of times the mass of the Milky Way right at the heart of these galaxy clusters.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">And maybe seven.</span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yeah, they’ve already pulled away so many galaxies and torn them apart and added them to the mass.  Eventually I guess they all have to have their time to meet [laughter] their final destination with whatever is the big elliptical galaxy at the core of the galaxy cluster.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Is that what astronomers think then?  In the end there will just be in each of these superclusters one big galaxy?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>The question is just how far do you evolve the clock and at what point do you say I have a bunch of black holes or I have a bunch of galaxies.  Over time you’re going to have the gas and dust getting used up in star formation getting knocked out into the inner cluster media.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You end up with the cluster itself having this thicker and thicker gas that is orbiting outside of any specific galaxy settling toward the center.  It’s so hot that it doesn’t all compact down and form something nice and small and compact in the center.  As you have these galaxies harassing each other they shred each other.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Given enough time they merge together and merge together more.  At the same time you have the stars are dying in the galaxies.  You have the systems themselves the stars are turning off over time.  At what point do you say I now have a bunch of dead stars and black holes, this really isn’t a galaxy anymore and I have a system that is filled with more gas than stars and dust.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s a matter of what do you name these future entities.  I’m not sure anyone has sat down and looked at the models trillions of years in the future and said I’m going to stop calling a supercluster a collection of galaxies and start calling it a collection of dead compact objects.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> We should come up with a name then. [laughter] Listeners, now is your chance. Hurry, we’ll write a paper. We’ll claim the name.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>I think mostly astronomers are worried about trying to figure out things that have happened in the past.  Our models say, yes everything is falling into superclusters.  We haven’t really started to worry about how superclusters die.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>This is going to be completely out of left field, but what’s a great attractor?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> If you go outside and you turn on your microwave eyes and then decide that you’re gong to go into orbit because you can see the microwave much better in that direction.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> That’s easy we do this all the time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right and things like Planck if it launches successfully tomorrow, and the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe in the past make very good measurements of the cosmic microwave background.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When we measure our motion relative to the cosmic microwave background we can go aha we’re going in that direction because of Doppler shifting.  We see light in one direction is shifted toward the red.  Light in another direction is shifted toward the blue.  It’s nice in opposite sides of the sky so we know we’re traveling in the direction that we see the light shifted toward the blue.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When we add up all the motions that we know about, when we add up the motion of the sun around the center of the galaxy, when we add up the motion of the galaxy relative to the local group.  When we then start looking at the motion of the local group what we find is we’re headed in a direction that is blocked out by the disc of the Milky Way.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re not quite sure what we’re headed toward.  We think this is a combination of both giant chunk of mass that direction and giant void of mass in the opposite direction.  A lack of mass will cause you to go toward the direction of a perfectly average pile of mass because your forces aren’t balanced.  It’s not anti-gravity but it’s a lack of gravity and it kind of has the same effect.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Whatever it is that we’re actually being attracted towards, we can’t see it.  It is like driving down the highway with your front windshield blacked out.  The disc of the galaxy is blocking in the sky.  Do astronomers have any idea?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We think that part of this motion is probably caused by what is called the Shapley supercluster. This is a giant, giant collection of galaxies that is off in the direction of the Centaurus constellation.  We think that that’s part of the cause.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There is also a void that was identified a couple of years ago in the opposite direction that we think is another part of the cause.  There’s probably still more mass waiting to be discovered that’s hiding behind the dust and gas that makes up the plane of the Milky Way.  We just can’t see what galaxies are beyond the area our Milky Way is obscuring.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I guess it’s only been in the last few years that astronomers have had a lot of the technology to be able to peer right through the Milky Way, right?  I mean x-rays.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> X-rays help.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Yeah and I know that astronomers have been putting together surveys of galaxies and clusters and stuff on the other side of the Milky Way using Chandra and that kind of thing.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>One of the problems is Chandra only allows us to see the biggest clusters of galaxies and the nearest clusters of galaxies.  Those are the only ones that have enough mass to be generating enough hot gas that it emits x-ray light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re also looking in the infrared.  Infrared can also pierce through the dust.  We’re looking in the radio.  It’s by combining all of this different data. Now of course there is stuff that gives off light in the infrared in the disc.  There is stuff that gives off light in the radio in the disc.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">No matter what happens it’s always going to be hard.  We have no completely transparent band that allows us to look through all of the stuff in the disc of the Milky Way.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> There isn’t any need for a kind of scary pseudoscience description of what the great attractor is?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>No it’s simply that there is something big over there and we’re falling toward it.  That’s okay, we understand how that works.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> This is one of those situations where our position is not in our favor.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> That’s it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Sometimes chance alignments happen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Are there any missions out there that you think will really help us understand the large scale structure of the universe?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The James Webb Space Telescope is definitely going to help us understand the evolution of the large scale structure.  The Sloan Digital Sky Survey and the future Large Synaptic Survey Telescope – the LSST are both going to play major roles as well.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">What’s happening right now with the Sloan Digital Sky Surveys, there is a robotic telescope out in New Mexico that is systematically looking at the sky both taking regular images that hopefully lots of you have looked at in Galaxy Zoo.  If you haven’t, go to galaxyzoo.org.  They’re measuring as well as what does the galaxy look like through photographs, they’re also taking spectra and measuring the red shifts.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This allows us to figure out the distance to these galaxies.  By combining all of this different information they’re making amazing 3-dimensional pictures of what the nearest billionish and beyond that but with decreasing numbers of sources.  You start looking at quasars to measure the density of the universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They’re working to build detailed 3-dimensional maps of first our Milky Way using stars, then the nearest part using all the galaxies and then the more distant parts using quasars.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Sloan Digital Sky Survey is going to keep going deeper.  They’re going to keep looking at different types of details with different surveys.  We have in the future the Large Synaptic Survey Telescope coming onboard which is going to take image after image of the sky. Over time you can add those together to get deeper and deeper images.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">James Webb space telescope is not a survey telescope but it’s going to allow us to over time take the equivalent of the Hubble deep field but in the infrared giving us an even deeper view of our universe, a narrow cone of understanding.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> It’s the time machine idea where James Webb is going to be looking right back to hundreds of millions of years.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Exactly, the very first objects.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yeah, after the universe formed and really watch as those differences in density started to turn into the big galaxy clusters that we see today.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>You can go out and see both sides of this in both real data and in models.  There’s a fellow down in the University of Hawaii, Josh Barnes who has done some amazing movies of how do galaxies merge.  If you want to see how galaxies self-destruct he has models that do that.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There are all sorts of different videos on how does large scale structure evolve over time.  There are Sloan Digital Sky Survey fly-through movies that allow you to go from right there on the mountain peak in New Mexico zooming out to the Milky Way, zooming out to the local group, and zooming out to the quasars that are at the edge of the survey.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You can fly through our understanding of the universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Awesome.  I think that wraps up the biggest there is.  Thanks Pamela.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
</div>
<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-137-large-scale-structure-of-the-universe/' addthis:title='Ep. 137: Large Scale Structure of the Universe '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090511.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>This week we’re going to think big. Bigger than big. We’re going to consider the biggest things in the Universe. If you could pull way back, and examine regions of space billions of light-years across, what would you see?</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>This week we’re going to think big. Bigger than big. We’re going to consider the biggest things in the Universe. If you could pull way back, and examine regions of space billions of light-years across, what would you see? How is the Universe arranged a...</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Ep. 135: X-Ray Astronomy</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-135-x-ray-astronomy/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-135-x-ray-astronomy/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 17:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Astronomy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astronomycast.com/?p=724</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We continue our journey through the electromagnetic spectrum with X-rays. If you&#8217;ve ever broken a bone, you probably know how X-rays are most commonly used. While doctors use X-rays to study the human body, and astronomers use X-rays to study some of the hottest places in the Universe. So let&#8217;s put on our X-ray specs, [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-135-x-ray-astronomy/' addthis:title='Ep. 135: X-Ray Astronomy '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We continue our journey through the electromagnetic spectrum with X-rays.  If you&#8217;ve ever broken a bone, you probably know how X-rays are most commonly used.  While doctors use X-rays to study the human body, and astronomers use X-rays to study some of the hottest places in the Universe. So let&#8217;s put on our X-ray specs, and see what we can see.</p>
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<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
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<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<p><span id="more-724"></span></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://science.hq.nasa.gov/kids/imagers/ems/xrays.html">X-rays</a> &#8212; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_astro/absorption.html">Chandra Field Guide to X-ray Astronomy</a></li>
<li><a href="http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/xray.htm">Hard X-rays </a>(shorter wavelengths, higher energy)<a href="http://hesperia.gsfc.nasa.gov/sftheory/xray.htm"><br />
</a></li>
<li>Soft X-rays (longer wavelengths, lower energy)</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/introduction/xray_detectors.html">X-ray detectors </a>&#8211; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://astrophysics.gsfc.nasa.gov/balloon/">NASA&#8217;s Scientific Ballooning Program (which includes X-ray)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2009/tycho/">Supernova Remnant 1572 (Tycho&#8217;s Remnant) by Chandra </a></li>
<li><a href="http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/false_color.html">False colors associated with X-ray</a> &#8212; Chandra</li>
<li><a href="http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/objects/background/background.html">The Diffuse X-ray Background </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.apod.pl/apod/ap000902.html">The X-ray Moon </a>&#8211; APOD</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/xray_sun.html">The Sun as an X-ray Source </a>&#8211; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2009/04/29/nearsighted-no-more-astronomers-resolve-milky-ways-mysterious-x-ray-glow/">Astronomers Resolve Milky Way&#8217;s Mysterious X-ray Glow </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/binary_stars.html">X-ray Binary stars</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpius_X-1">Scorpius X-1,</a> one of  the first extrasolar X-ray sources</li>
<li><a href="http://cxc.harvard.edu/newsletters/news_13/jets.html">Chandra&#8217;s Study of X-ray jets</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www-ssg.sr.unh.edu/ism/what1.html">Interstellar Medium </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/I/intergalactic_medium.html">Intergalactic Medium</a></li>
<li><a href="http://chandra.harvard.edu/xray_sources/galaxy_clusters.html">Groups and Clusters of Galaxies from Chandra&#8217;s Field Guide</a></li>
<li><a href="http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=39">The Life Cycle of Galaxies</a> &#8212; Cornell U</li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: X-Ray Astronomy</h3>
<p><strong>Download the transcript</strong></p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser Cain: </strong> We’re moving along in the x-ray spectrum.  If you’ve ever broken a bone x-rays are a part of the electromagnetic spectrum that you’ve experienced personally.  Doctors use x-rays to study the human body but astronomers use x-rays to study some of the hottest most energetic places in the universe.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So, let’s put on our x-ray specs and see what we can see.  Alright so landscape time I think we were down to 7 nanometers for ultraviolet astronomy. We’ve gone from meters in the radio all the way down to 7 nanometers.  Where do we find x-rays?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay:</strong> This is where we actually get into people debating because there are those out there who argue that the ultraviolet goes down as short as 7 nanometers.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then there are those that say that x-rays go as long as 10 nanometers.  Somewhere between 10 and 7 nanometers is where the x-rays pick up.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> How can that even be an argument?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Different people decide they’re going to look in different books and get different definitions.  Some people like to round things to the nearest 10<sup>th</sup> because it is convenient.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s just light that we can’t see.  So there is really no clean reason to define it any particular way.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Is there like some kind of physical characteristic that divides the line between ultraviolet and x-ray?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> No. [Laughter]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay, and how small does it get?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It gets pretty short.  With x-rays we’re also looking at things that get down to about a hundredth of a nanometer.  So we go from roughly 10 nanometers down to 0.01 nanometers.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What are those, picometers?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well it’s not quite a picometers.  It is actually ten picometers. We’re starting to get down to the point where without thinking really hard most of us don’t know what are the correct abbreviations we should be using.  It’s just small.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is where we’re starting to get down into really high energies.  These things when they hit you, if they happen to hit a piece of DNA quite happily destroy it.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Really.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah it’s one of the kinds of frustrating pieces with the really hard x-rays is they carry enough energy that they can start to blow things apart.  It is cool but dangerous.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Luckily most of the x-rays we deal with day to day in real life are the softer ones that are a lot less harmful.  You don’t want to get a lot of them but getting a dental x-ray, getting a leg x-ray now and then is not going to kill you.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Those are soft x-rays.  Those are the larger wavelengths?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The larger wavelengths in the lower energies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> The lower energies and then the harder x-rays are the shorter wavelengths and the higher energies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Exactly.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Then I guess we’ve got a little protection from x-rays though living here on the surface of the Earth?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>This is actually one of the really good things.  We know that x-rays can go through air. Otherwise you’d have a lot of problems in the hospital because the x-rays wouldn’t make it from the machine to your leg.  X-rays in general can only travel a couple of meters through air before they get absorbed.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">While x-rays start to enter our atmosphere they don’t make it very far before all of their energy is absorbed into the atmosphere.  So we’re actually kept safe from all the background of x-ray that exists out there in outer space.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Then x-ray astronomy from the surface of the Earth completely worthless.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yeah it’s just not going to happen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> It’s not going to happen and you might as well be looking at nothing, it’s completely black.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> But balloons work and that’s kind of cool.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Let’s talk a bit about again the detectors and the equipment.  In my experience with dental x-rays is there some great big kind of gun like thing [Laughter] stuck next to my mouth and then I have to chew on this film in my mouth.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then I hear this bzzzt for a second and then I spit out the little pieces of film and the dentist runs away and comes back and shows me my teeth.  Clearly we’ve got an x-ray source and maybe my dentist would replace that with I don’t know a black hole.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then we’ve got a detector [Laughter] which in this case is the film.  How does that compare with what astronomers are doing?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Clearly we don’t have friendly little dental hygienists running back and forth from the Chandra X-Ray Observatory with film to develop in that back mysterious room of your dentist’s office.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right but I mean with visible and even with ultraviolet we’ve got a big dish, right?  We’re using the same kind of equipment, the same kind of set up?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>No here x-rays are annoyingly difficult to try and focus.  They would much rather get absorbed or go through the side of your telescope than to get focused down in a nice friendly way onto a detector.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">What we have to basically do is cause them to very carefully through grazing angles get bounced onto a detector. We can’t focus them the way that you can focus a nice normal ray of optical light or even infrared light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Take a big round thing in outer space and line the inside of it with shelves of aluminum foil.  They don’t actually use like cooking aluminum foil. Line the inside with foil such that if something was trying to come in at an almost parallel line to the foil it would just barely hit it at a grazing angle and get reflected off.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If it hits enough of these pieces of foil at the slight grazing angle we can actually very carefully and very slightly bend the x-ray light.  We can’t bend it enough to get it into a nice clean focus.  When we try and take images of x-rays what they actually do is rely on shadows.  This is kind of weird to think about.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They actually have these really complicated plates in many x-ray detectors that have a series of holes in them.  The x-rays are able to go through the holes and then get blocked by other parts of this plate.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They are able to reconstruct the image by where they do and don’t see light.  If you have light coming in from the left you’ll get one set of shadows.  If you have light coming in from the right you’ll get a different set of shadows.  By looking at the shadows and the light they can figure out yes there was light from the left; yes there was light from the right and it was brighter.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It is a lot of complicated math to get an image but these images allow us to take an entirely new view on the universe and they’re some of the most spectacular ones that we have.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you’ve never gone out and looked at what supernova remnants for instance look like in x-ray the Chandra Space Telescope has an amazing galaxy.  My favorite is this object called 1572 that looks like there is a forest growing out of basically a purple jellyfish.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Right and of course these aren’t the true colors.  They are coming up on computer and they are associating one kind of color let’s say with hard x-rays and another kind of color with the softer x-rays or different temperatures and trying to recreate what’s going on.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Of course you couldn’t actually see this with your eyeballs.  That’s the way Chandra works?  If you look at Chandra it is long and skinny and kind of looks like a space telescope.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It’s actually got these grazing angles, these foils that very carefully deflect the light just slightly to get it down to the detector.  We have detectors that are essentially able to detect each and every single photon that hits the detector and translate that into a signal.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I guess with a telescope, with a great big mirror you don’t have to get every single photon you just have to get a lot of them but you can focus a lot of them in to concentrate it.  In the case of an x-ray one, it’s very hard to get all of the photons.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You’re not going to get much more photons than the size of your detector itself.  As you said it can narrow a few down but that’s it.  Every photon that hits is hitting with such high energy that they’re probably easier to catch in terms of the detector.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It is easier to detect a photon that hits with x-ray energy as opposed to say a photon that hits with I don’t know, visible light energy, radio wave [Laughter] right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>With the optical telescope all of the star’s light that’s hitting the mirror gets focused down to a very few pixels on the CCD detector.  Whereas with x-ray telescopes we have those photons going through and then we’re purposely blocking some of them.  The ones that do hit the detector are scattered all over the place.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We have to catch each and every single one of those.  We’re able to do that with things like micro-calorimeters and with <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">Teslas</span>. We’re able to finally after a lot of originally all we could say was yes there’s an object – no there’s no object.  We’re finally able to build amazing images of objects using x-ray light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I know that Chandra for example does very, very long exposures.  They’ll point Chandra at a galaxy cluster or a black hole for a very long time to build up these it’s almost like you can think of it as like drops of rain falling – photon, photon, photon – and then it just builds up the image over time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It’s not a fast process.  One of the things that really amazes me about this is each of these photons is so much more powerful.  While it may take longer to build up a few hundred of them those few hundred if you focused all of them on to one happy little amoeba that would normally be bathing in sunlight on slide, you would toast the poor innocent amoeba.  You’re carrying huge amounts of energies in each and every one of these photons.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Another interesting thing is that they leave Chandra sometimes open can actually get science done just by the in-betweens.  Chandra is moving from one location to another location and they’ll still record everything it sees as it is sloughing to a new spot.  Astronomers have made use of all of that in-between data as well.  It’s pretty cool.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the cool things that we’re finding and Chandra is not solely responsible for this but the entire sky glows in the x-ray.  There’s this diffuse background of x-ray radiation just like there’s a diffused flow of microwave radiation.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">But we know where the microwave comes from and we’re still trying to figure out where all this x-ray radiation is coming from.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Are there any theories?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Lots but we don’t know for certain.  For instance we know early in the universe there was wild star formation.  There were lots of quasars and lots of active galaxies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It could just be that all of those added up might, maybe but it is a lot of energy to come up with.  We’re still trying to sort this one out.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Right it would have to be red shifted as well because it would be so far away.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> If you start off in the gamma ray you can land yourself happily in the x-ray.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Right but that just means that yeah there’s some really – and I guess gamma rays that’s next week.  What kinds of things – we’ve kind of hinted at it – what kinds of things are we going to want to look at and study in the x-ray?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the coolest things to actually look at in the x-ray is our own moon.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> What, our high energy moon? [Laughter]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>It’s not exactly that our moon itself is radiating away x-rays but our sun does give off x-rays.  At least it normally does, right now much to the annoyance of every lunar scientist it’s adamantly not having any sunspots and not having any coronal mass ejections with their associated x-rays.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When you have a normal active moon when a blast of x-ray radiation from the sun hits the moon it can interact with different minerals and fluoresce. Anytime you see a mineral fluoresce this is for instance what you get when you shine ultraviolet light on a white shirt, when you shine ultraviolet light onto a rock that contains fluoride.  The high energy light gets absorbed.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Some of the energy makes the molecule vibrate madly.  Then some of that light gets re-radiated with a longer wavelength and we can see it.  With the x-ray fluorescence some of these high energy particles has some of this high energy light gets absorbed by the minerals on the moon and then re-emitted as softer x-rays.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can actually see the glowing x-ray moon against a background of much, much fainter x-ray emission from the whole universe.  Then on the dark side of the moon – the side of the moon that’s not getting lit up with the sunlight – you see darkness.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You can end up with these really neat images of bright x-ray fluorescence from the moon background x-rays and then the dark part of the moon just sitting there going I’m dark.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right because it’s not getting any light from the sun.  Okay, the moon, what else, the sun?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The sun and here it’s not that our sun is hot enough to just haphazardly be emitting in the x-rays.  X-ray corresponds to temperatures far greater than our sun.  When you take a magnetic field line and rearrange it, this is what happens when we get coronal mass ejections.  There is a huge amount of energy in the magnetic field lines.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When you release all of that energy into space some of it gets released in the form of x-ray.  Some of it gets released in the form of high velocity particles.  It’s those x-rays from the sun that we see getting reflected off of the moon.  Those are all pretty cool, they are all pretty nearby and pretty easy to observe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The easiest thing to observe is actually the center of our galaxy.  When you look toward the center of the Milky Way you see a large bright x-ray source.  This is actually just background from our own black hole flickering away in the center of the Milky Way.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I know that the center of the Milky Way is blocked by gas and dust.  In the visible light and ultraviolet we can see it in the infrared.  We are able to see it in x-rays?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We’re able to see it in x-rays as well.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Isn’t that kind of amazing?  X-rays are blocked by a few meters of our atmosphere and yet they can pierce the shrouds of gas and dust from the center of the Milky Way.  That’s quite amazing.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> That itself still isn’t one of the brightest sources.  That’s just sitting there flickering periodically giving off x-ray light.  The brightest things of all are things that we have to randomly go searching for. These are x-ray binary systems.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is where you take a couple of high mass objects put them in orbit around one another and let one of them steal mass off of the other.  The brightest x-ray source known for a long time was Scorpius X-1.  It is an object about 9,000 light years away. It gives off more light in just the x-ray than the sun gives off in all of its wavelengths combined.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In the system we have what we think is just a nice happy normal neutron star orbiting another star and sucking material out of its atmosphere.  As that material spirals in it radiates away energy because it is going really fast.  In order to slow down and orbit correctly it has to radiate some of that kinetic energy away as thermal energy.  That energy is getting radiated away in the x-ray.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> If you could actually see the object, what would it look like?  Would it be sort of like have an <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">ecretion </span>disc around it and then be the neutron star spinning at the middle?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong> It is sufficiently far away that it is just a boring point source.  It is just this blob of x-ray emission.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Of course but if we could get close and see?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> If we were able to get close and see we’d probably see bright x-rays coming from the <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">ecretion</span> disc itself and then also perhaps flickering at the point where material is getting torn off and were perhaps interfering with the magnetic field of the companion star.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You’d also see bright x-rays associated with the magnetic field of the neutron star itself.  I have to admit I don’t know enough about the details of these systems to know what would be brightest, what would be faintest but you would have a lot of different places would be giving off x-ray emissions at varying amounts.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Do the x-rays come off in jets or the just kind of come off in all directions equally?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> With this, it is actually thermal radiation. The same way you get thermal radiation from a hot rock.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> That’s all directions?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It is all directions.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> There are objects out there that do give off jets that can be seen in the x-ray.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>This is one of the cool things. It’s not actually the jets that are doing the x-ray emitting.  It is the way they shock the material around them that leads to the x-rays.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of the really cool things that happens when you start looking at giant active galaxies especially when they’re in clusters of galaxies is you have jets that are emitting in the radio predominantly.  These are electrons flying through space spiraling around magnetic field lines.  As they spiral they’re giving off light in the radio.  As these accelerated particles that are accelerated by the magnetic field associated with an <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%;">ecretion</span> disc in an active black hole get accelerated down the jets eventually they start colliding with the interstellar medium, the intergalactic medium depending on if it is a super massive black hole in a galaxy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You can also get this with stellar mass black holes.  In either case these jets end up hitting the gas and dust that pretty much is everywhere in space.  Space is full of gas and dust.  As it decelerates against this gas and dust it shocks that gas and dust.  It is the shocking, the sudden deceleration that ends up leading to the x-ray emission.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Wow.  You’re getting these kinds of spots of very high temperature.  I know that some of the greatest pictures taken by Chandra are these gigantic galaxy clusters colliding together with gas clouds of millions of degrees just because of all of the energies involved.  One of the questions that I have is how can you have these gigantic gas clouds of millions of degrees, are we getting stars there?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The amazing thing about these clouds is well as astronomers refer to them as dense they’re not dense and their high temperature doesn’t come from the high pressure or lots of collisions taking place. They’re actually such a high temperature because you have the particles, the atoms getting accelerated into these giant massive, massive objects.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When they do occasionally collide they’ve been accelerated by gravity.  When they collide they radiate away all of that kinetic energy in the form of x-ray emission.  In this case it is the velocity is equivalent to the temperature.  You end up with this really high temperature because you have a lot of gravity.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Oh, and we’re seeing the collisions.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We’re seeing the collisions. You don’t have to have a lot of them to have a lot of the x-rays.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> If you actually were in your spaceship in those hot gas clouds</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>You wouldn’t notice.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> You wouldn’t even notice.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>You’re like vacuum of space, I’m fine not a big deal.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Yeah, million degree gas?  That’s not so bad.  What else would we want to look at with x-rays?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The coolest objects of all of course are supernova remnants.  This is the case where you have an exploded star.  It’s not the whole exploding part that gives off the really cool x-rays although you do get cool x-rays with the explosion part as well.  The really cool stuff comes when the shed atmosphere of the supernova, when the part of the star that gets flung out into space starts hitting the gas and dust that’s between the stars it rapidly decelerates.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In the process it can give off just the most amazing x-ray emission.  Here you can end up with all sorts of wonderful structures.  We don’t know what causes all of the structures.  In many cases it is just well that’s the shape the gas and dust was in and when you shocked it and it ended up with this new shape.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s kind of like what happens when you blow on a really dusty bookshelf.  You get a clear space and then how the dust around the clear space is shaped depends on how long it has been since you cleaned your shelf, how much friction there is, all sorts of stuff.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Trying to sort out supernova remnant is sort of like trying to sort out the structure of the clean spot on the shelf you’ve just blown on.  It is hard and we’re not entirely sure what all is there to take into consideration yet.  A planet can get in the way.  Asteroid belts can get in the way. All of these things can affect the final shape of a supernova remnant.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What do you think are some of the big questions out there – and I guess you alluded to one of them – that would be answered by x-ray astronomy?  What I’m mentioning is what this background x-ray radiation that we see everywhere is?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the coolest things that we can do with x-rays is we can trace out how is it that galaxies go through their life cycle.  How is it that when they’re young they’re rich in star formation and have active galactic nuclei?  How often do these super massive black holes go through feeding phases?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As we look back to further and further in the past we’re able to see galaxies at all of their different stages of life.  We’re able to see ah; when we look here there are a lot of quasars.  When we look here there aren’t but now we see spirals merging together and their central super massive black holes turning back on.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can see this turning on and turning off of the super massive black holes in the form of basically the x-rays they split out while they’re in the process of feeding.  We can study how is it that we get to this wonderful galaxy that we live in and we get to the diversity of galaxies all around us over the course of the universe’s evolution.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>That’s one of the big questions that I guess with the launch of the James Webb telescope and some of the other observatories coming out.  We’re probably going to get a pretty good answer to within the next couple of decades which is how did we get from the big bang and just a spray of hydrogen and helium to smaller galaxies, to bigger galaxies, to the big grand spirals that we have today.  What’s the process?  Did they all come together quickly?  Did they come together in bits and pieces?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I think that’s one of the questions that I see as I work on articles that keep coming up again and again.  Astronomers just don’t really know the exact process.  Obviously they have some ideas.  The x-ray is just another tool in the toolkit to do that.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It is a long journey and we have many more telescopes to go before it is done.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Well I think that wraps up x-rays for this week.  I think we’ve only got one left.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I think we have gamma rays another one of those that doesn’t have an edge.  It and the radio define the two ends of the spectrum.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Next week we learn how to make The Hulk.</p>
<div id="attachment_725" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 160px"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-725" title="Supernova remnant W49B, seen in X-rays and visible light." src="http://www.astronomycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/chandra_composite-150x150.jpg" alt="Supernova remnant W49B, seen in X-rays and visible light." width="150" height="150" /><p class="wp-caption-text">Supernova remnant W49B, seen in X-rays and visible light.</p></div>
</div>
<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/05/ep-135-x-ray-astronomy/' addthis:title='Ep. 135: X-Ray Astronomy '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090427.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>We continue our journey through the electromagnetic spectrum with X-rays.  If you&#039;ve ever broken a bone, you probably know how X-rays are most commonly used.  While doctors use X-rays to study the human body,</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>We continue our journey through the electromagnetic spectrum with X-rays.  If you&#039;ve ever broken a bone, you probably know how X-rays are most commonly used.  While doctors use X-rays to study the human body, and astronomers use X-rays to study some of...</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
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		<title>Ep. 134: Ultraviolet Astronomy</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/04/ep-134-ultraviolet-astronomy/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/04/ep-134-ultraviolet-astronomy/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Astronomy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astronomycast.com/?p=710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Our next visit in this tour through the electromagnetic spectrum is the ultraviolet. You can&#8217;t see it, but anyone who&#8217;s spent a day out in the hot sun without sunblock has sure experienced its effects. Ultraviolet radiation is associated with the birth of stars and some of the hottest places in the Universe. Ep. 134: [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/04/ep-134-ultraviolet-astronomy/' addthis:title='Ep. 134: Ultraviolet Astronomy '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div id="attachment_711" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 160px"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-711" title="M81 in ultraviolet. Image credit: NASA" src="http://www.astronomycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/529px-m81_uv_nasajpl-150x150.jpg" alt="M81 in ultraviolet. Image credit: NASA" width="150" height="150" /><p class="wp-caption-text">M81 in ultraviolet. Image credit: NASA</p></div>
<p>Our next visit in this tour through the electromagnetic spectrum is the ultraviolet. You can&#8217;t see it, but anyone who&#8217;s spent a day out in the hot sun without sunblock has sure experienced its effects. Ultraviolet radiation is associated with the birth of stars and some of the hottest places in the Universe.</p>
<p><span id="more-710"></span></p>
<table>
<tr>
<td>
<li><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090420.mp3">Ep. 134: Ultraviolet Astronomy</a></strong></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
</td>
</tr>
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<div style="clear: both;"></div>
<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_astronomy">Ultraviolet Astronomy</a></li>
<li><a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557777_3/telescope.html">Ultraviolet Astronomy</a> &#8212; Encarta</li>
<li><a href="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/events/lectures/apr05.cfm">The Ultraviolet Universe </a>&#8211; JPL Webcast by Dr. Christopher Martin, GALEX
</li>
<li><a href="http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/964647970.html">About UVA, UVB and health risks</a> &#8212; Healthlink</li>
<li><a href="http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Blackbody.html">Black Body Spectrum</a> &#8212; Wolfram Research</li>
<li><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0403499">Paper:  Far- UV Spectroscopy of Star Forming Region</a>s &#8212; arXiv</li>
<li><a href="http://www.eso.org/public/outreach/press-rel/pr-2008/pr-39-08.html">Deepest Ultraviolet Image of the Universe</a> &#8212; ESO</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2003/12/11/best-ultraviolet-image-of-andromeda-galaxy/">Best Ultraviolet Image of the Andromeda Galaxy </a>&#8211; Universe Today
</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/02/27/an-entire-galaxy-seen-in-ultraviolet/">M 33 in Ultraviolet</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://astro.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/darkmatter/bbn.html">The Big Bang and deuterium </a>&#8211; Berkeley</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2006/08/18/hidden-stores-of-deuterium-discovered-in-the-milky-way/">FUSE deuterium explanation</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2002/11/image/d">Mice Galaxies-</a> HubbleSite</li>
<li><a href="http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/entire/pr1997034a/">Antennae Galaxies</a> &#8212; HubbleSite</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/17/stellar-birth-in-the-galactic-wilderness/">Pinwheel Galaxy by GALEX</a> &#8212; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2001/04">Hubble&#8217;s Ultraviolet Views of Nearby Galaxies Yield Clues to Early Universe</a><a href="http://astro.berkeley.edu/~jcohn/lya.html"> &#8212; HubbleSite</a></li>
<li>Lyman-Alpha systems</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/Lyman-alpha-forest.html">Lyman-Alpha Forest</a> &#8212; UCLA
</li>
<li><a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2007/08/15/the-wonderful/">FUSE image of Mira Galaxy</a> &#8212; Bad Astronomy
</li>
</ul>
<p>Ultraviolet Telescopes:</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astron_(spacecraft)">Astron-1</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrosat">Astrosat</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_Netherlands_Satellite">Astronomical Netherlands Satellite</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_Imaging_Telescope">Extreme Ultraviolet Imaging Telescope</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/telescopes/fuse.html">FUSE</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.galex.caltech.edu/about/overview.html">GALEX</a></li>
<li><a href="http://hubblesite.org/">Hubble </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.scienceclarified.com/He-In/International-Ultraviolet-Explorer.html">International Ultraviolet Explorer</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.sal.wisc.edu/~meade/OAO/">Orbiting Astronomic Observatory</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/swift/main/index.html">Swift Telescope</a></li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: Ultraviolet Astronomy</h3>
<p>
<strong>Download the transcript</strong><br />
</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser Cain:</strong> Hi Pamela how was your conference?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay:</strong> It was amazing.  The folks at NEAF are a really great group and the stuff that they had there from all sorts of different brand new telescope designs from all the different manufacturers.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They had solar observing set; they had all sorts of workshops throughout the weekend.  It was really an impressive conference and I highly advise anyone out on the east coast to go to it next year.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> You did a live question show?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I did a live question show.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Our next visit in the tour through the electromagnetic spectrum is in the ultraviolet.  You can’t see it but anyone who spends a day out in the hot sun without sun block has sure experienced its effects.  That’s sunburn.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Ultraviolet radiation is associated with the birth of stars and some of the hottest places in the universe.  So once again I guess we want to get our bearings.  Ultraviolet is shorter wavelengths than the visible light that we can see with our eyeballs. Where does it range?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It in general starts right where the atmosphere starts blocking it at about 320 nanometers and then it goes all the way down to about 7 nanometers for the most extreme ultraviolet.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> [Laughter] Seven nanometers. You just mentioned that it is blocked by the atmosphere.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is probably a good thing.  Once we start getting ultraviolet we’re dealing with damaging radiation from the sun.  Luckily we have ozone in our atmosphere so up in the highest levels of our atmosphere the ozone just happily absorbs all of the radiation.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It heats up and as the planet rotates it dissipates its heat back out and we’re able to be protected.  While some UV still gets through at the longest of the wavelengths and still causes sunburn for the unprotected, in general we’re kept safe by the ozone in the atmosphere.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>We look at our sun block it says that it is like UVA and UVB.  How does that compare to the wavelengths?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The UVA is from about 320 nanometers longward to 400 nanometers.  This is where stuff is getting through the atmosphere at a fairly good rate and the UVB is from 320 nanometers down to 290 nanometers at which point the atmosphere is pretty much opaque.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We are starting to deplete the ozone in our atmosphere periodically thanks to fluorocarbons and other nasty pollutants so we do have to a fair bit about the UVA getting through but less about the UVB.  But, it is the UVB that is more dangerous when it hits us.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Then but we’re definitely blocking out the stuff, the 7 nanometer stuff.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> [Laughter] Yeah that has no hope of getting through our atmosphere.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> What is the source of ultraviolet?  What creates ultraviolet rays?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>In general anything that is hot enough can generate ultraviolet.  Our own sun doesn’t give off the majority of its light in these really high wavelengths but because it is giving off a curve of light it still has some emission that is coming out in the ultraviolet just like it has some emission that is coming off out in the radio.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It is these high energy particles from our sun that we worry about the most.  We also get ultraviolet light from different atomic transition lines.  For instance in hydrogen one of the fundamental lines Lyman alpha is in the ultraviolet.  We also get it from different atomic transitions and things like carbon and nitrogen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> When you say transitions, this is where an atom jumps from one energy level to another energy level and releases a photon?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> That’s exactly what’s happening.  You excite the atoms to a high energy state and the electrons jump up. But just like people can’t stay excited for a long time electrons don’t stay excited.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Eventually they collapse back down to lower energy levels and in the process give off photons.  For elements like carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, magnesium even iron to a certain point, many of these transitions are occurring in the ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> That allows you to be a bit of a detective.  You can look at some object, you can see in this case ultraviolet rays coming off of it at a very specific wavelength and that can help you figure out what process is going on with that object?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> What’s even cooler about this is this particular set of transitions is very sensitive to temperature.  We can look at the different strengths of these different transitions and know exactly how hot or how cool a given star is.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can use these transitions to measure temperatures as well as to measure the abundance which helps us learn: what was the chemical process that got to build that object.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and so you said that hot objects are responsible.  Our sun is going from the radio all the way up to ultraviolet and beyond.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">More specifically if you’re going to want to do some ultraviolet astronomy what kinds of things are you going to be looking for?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> In addition to seeing these high temperature, end of the black body spectrum we also were very sensitive to things like the transition lines in gas that is heated from 10,000 to about 100,000 degrees.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This is where you have hot gas surrounding hot young stars.  We start to be able to see star forming regions very well in the ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What about the dust?  Does the dust block the ultraviolet?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah dust is a problem but it is only a problem for part of the ultraviolet.  This is one of the kinds of cool weird things about this.  You do get a fairly significant amount of dust observed where right around 217 nanometers you have a peak in the absorption from the local dust.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As you get to shorter and shorter wavelengths, th<span style="text-decoration: none;"><span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">e dust is able to just sort of blast its way right through the dust </span></span>and so at the longer parts of the ultraviolet, we can’t see anything through the dust.  As we look at the shortest part of the ultraviolet we start to be able to see through the dust.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Why are newly forming stars so hot?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It is not that all the newly forming stars are hot but it is that the star forming regions themselves are filled with young, young stars.  Some stars in particular the hottest stars only live for a short period of time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you want to see hot stars that only live for maybe at most a few million years you have to look for stellar nurseries.  It is one of the tragedies in a way that these really amazing systems that are blaring away with massive amounts of mass loss giving off huge amounts of ultraviolet light live for very short times.  They’re very disruptive to the other stars around them that will live more staid existences going on for billions of years.  They blast away at the gas and dust and then often explode violently as supernovae.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">To see these young stars in action, these short-lived stars in action, we have to look at the stellar nurseries.  Where we see ultraviolet light, that’s where these hot stars are and that is also where we’ll find star forming for the stars that will live much longer lives as well.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Right, okay so what else?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the other really cool things about ultraviolet is we start to be able to test our theories for the big bang.  We talk a lot about how during the first three minutes there was basically the entire universe acted like the inside of a star.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There were a lot of different nuclear reactions going on.  It gave us helium, trace amounts of lithium and beryllium.  One of the things that we don’t talk about very much is it also gave us deuterium.  It gave us a heavy form of hydrogen that has both a proton and a neutron in it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In general during these nuclear reactions, deuterium is just an intermediary product. It is just something that happens at a halfway through step and then it quickly gets turned into something else.  When the entire universe pretty much stopped having nuclear reactions all at once some of the reactions weren’t seen through to completion.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">All of this deuterium that was getting formed as an intermediate step was left behind when the nuclear reaction was turned off.  That deuterium is still there and over time within stars, the deuterium is getting destroyed.  We can look through and we can see the atomic transition lines from deuterium separate from hydrogen in the ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Their wavelengths are slightly different because their masses are slightly different.  We’re able to look back and measure the ratio of deuterium from hydrogen as it is decreased over time and through the evolution of the universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> That’s just another independent line of evidence that we can trace back to the big bang.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We have our predictions on how much deuterium should have been there.  We’re able to go back and determine that’s exactly what we see.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Wow.  I’m guessing that it is great for around super massive black holes, right?  There’s so much energy, so much temperature there.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is where we start to see things like what is referred to as the blue hump in the light from active galactic nuclei from galaxies that have all sorts of feeding processes going on with their super massive black hole.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">All of the energy is causing the inner parts of the <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">ecretion </span>disc to give off vast amounts of ultraviolet radiation.  It is really cool to look at galaxies in these really hot wavelengths because you see the core activity.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You see th<span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">e noddiness </span>of the star forming in the arms.  It is as though you’re seeing the galaxy in just its most interesting parts in some ways, its most energetic parts.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser</strong>:  Right if you looked at a galaxy in visible light it might look kind of bluish or more reddish.  If you look at a full galaxy in the ultraviolet, if it is undergoing a lot of star formation, it is completely different from a more regular galaxy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I guess a lot of the times because there is a lot of star formation happening that indicates that something recently happened, there is some kind of trauma to the galaxy?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> When you see unusually large amounts of star forming.  Some galaxies are just naturally still undergoing star formation.  Our own Milky Way still is naturally undergoing star formation.  When you look at things like the Mice, like the Antennae, these colliding systems in the ultraviolet you see massive amounts of star formation.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">What’s neat is as you shorten the wavelength that you’re looking at these galaxies in what you see is they go from these big dusty red things and then you strip away the red light and the arms get a little bit smaller.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Then as you start to go into the ultraviolet you’re left just looking at narrow ridge lines of the arms where the star formation is at the most active.  You see just these pockets of star formation tracing out the structure of the galaxy.  It is as though</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> That’s like the bones of the galaxy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, it’s very much of a skeletal system.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> What about planetary astronomy?  Is that any good here in our solar system?  I suppose the sun – there is a lot of research done on the sun.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>We look at the sun, we look at the reflections that we get in the ultraviolet off of the other planets and that helps us understand by how they’re reflecting different things what that tells us about the surface chemistry.  Different things emit at different wavelengths.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In general, ultraviolet isn’t the most interesting of things for looking at planets. It is mostly something that we use to try and understand the hydrogen, to understand the distribution of different atoms in distant galaxies.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In fact with galaxies we desperately have to use the ultraviolet to be able to find the most distant systems.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Let’s talk about <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">gear t</span>hen.  What does a telescope designed to capture ultraviolet radiation look like?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It is again like the infrared where we’re that different from visible light so we do use very similar equipment.  We use</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> A dish.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yeah, we use photoconductors that are like CCDs but we have to be very careful to block out what is called red leak.  This is where you start getting the visible spectrum light leaking in.  Detectors are very, very sensitive to red light, to visible light which is all red compared to the ultraviolet.  You have to very carefully reject all of this light from entering the detectors.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of the problems that we deal with is that we’re very good at building photocathodes that are sensitive to the ultraviolet.  Even though they’re sensitive they aren’t nearly as efficient at capturing that light as the detectors we use in the optical.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In the optical we’re able to get what we call quantum efficiency, the number of photons that get turned into a signal that makes a pretty picture.  In the visible light we’re often able to up to 90% of quantum efficiency.  When we’re using photocathodes in the ultraviolet we’re only getting 20-40% efficiency.  We’re losing a whole lot of light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Detectors in the ultraviolet are also much more sensitive to dirt and irregularities in the surface. We have to build much cleaner, much more everything; fewer surfaces for instances.  In the visible you can knock your light around 2 or 3 times and you’re not going to sweat it too much.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">But in the ultraviolet you want to use as few surfaces as possible.  In every reflection you end up losing some of those photons and every photon is precious in the ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and this is the big problem.  We’re here underneath the Earth’s atmosphere.  That’s great because we don’t get lots of really terrible sunburns or horribly irradiated [Laughter] but it is really bad because you think that the atmosphere is bad for a regular telescope, it is awful for ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Could you just take the standard telescope, a big research telescope and pull off the CCD cameras that are used for regular visible light astronomy and bolt in the UV equipment and it would work?  The telescope is the same thing?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>At the most basic level yes.  Some surfaces are better than others.  Silver vs. aluminum becomes a question but yeah a good reflecting telescope.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Especially if you have your detector up at prime focus so you’re only looking at one reflection that would work.  But you have to get above the atmosphere.  We’re always launching these suckers into space.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> The true enemy of the ultraviolet astronomer is the atmosphere.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> While we’ve had this whole series of really good missions, they was GALAX, FUSE, EUVE – the extreme ultraviolet explorer, Hubble space telescope does amazing work in the ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">But all these missions are temporary and we have no plans to replace any of the current missions in the future.  We’re reaching a point where we’re not going to have the ability observe in the ultraviolet anymore.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What are some examples, you just sort of went through them pretty quickly? GALAX, FUSE and Hubble those are sort of currently operating UV telescopes?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>FUSE is dead.  It died a few years ago. Its last sad little servo finally bit the dust.  GALAX only lasted 29 months so it is also a past-tense mission as well.  Ultraviolet explorer is a past-tense mission. Hubble is the only one up there that is currently actively taking ultraviolet images.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Assuming all goes well with the upcoming Hubble servicing mission, it has a few more years of life left in it.  Once that is past, there is nothing on the books currently to replace it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Nothing, wow.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We’re about to lose the ultraviolet and this is frustrating because there is some data like looking at Lyman-break galaxies that we can do a lot of work thanks to red shift.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can do a lot of work in the visible when things are very far away but as we start to look at nearby systems we’re losing all of that information.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I guess that was going to be sort of leading into my next big question: if money were no object and the most wonderful ultraviolet observatory could get launched, what would astronomers want to be looking for?  What deep questions would the ultraviolet help us answer?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Ultraviolet in addition to helping us trace out deuterium abundances over time also helps us understand where all the hydrogen gas is.  Where is all the absorption taking place?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Lyman-break galaxies we generally talk about these things when they’re at red shifts greater than 2.5, when they’re several billion light years away. These are systems where when they start emitting hot light that light gets absorbed at 912 nanometers by hydrogen gas.  This is the Lyman alpha transition.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So you see in the light coming off of the galaxy this nice pretty curve, pretty curve and then it just drops. What’s neat is when you look at these things in different wavelengths you see pretty galaxy in red, green, you see nothing in the ultraviolet.  By seeing this difference where it is there in the visible, it is there in the visible and then it goes away and in the ultraviolet we’re able to locate very quickly, very easily where distant galaxies are located.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">What are also cool are distant objects giving off light, that light passes through clouds of gas between us and those distant galaxies.  As that light passes through random isolated clouds of hydrogen gas, clouds that have no stars in them, clouds that never bother to form galaxies or star clusters or anything else, those clouds of gas that are intervening, absorb out light in the Lyman alpha creating what is called the Lyman alpha forest.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can map out where these pockets of cold gas are located throughout the universe by looking at how they absorbed this ultraviolet light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Then knowing where the cold gas is – the cold hydrogen gas is the stuff that stars eventually get made of – this is the stuff that is left over from the big bang?  It is kind of like it is the raw material that has never been used.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Knowing the amounts and knowing the locations and the percentages of this gas compared to a galaxy will tell astronomers how long galaxies can go how fast they’re going to be forming stars, all kinds of things.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We don’t get to all of that information just from the ultraviolet but at least it helps us figure out.  One of the questions with dark matter is how much of it is just stuff that’s cold?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This allows us to find where all the pockets of cold normal matter and when we find them they don’t add up to the missing dark matter.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> When we talk about how much of the universe is unknown we talk about the 20-something percent dark matter and the 70-something percent dark energy and of the 4 percent of matter, half of that is missing as well.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">[Laughter]  So it is regular matter, we just can’t see it.  That could be this cold hydrogen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>As I said before you use ultraviolet to very carefully measure temperatures, to get at chemical abundances.  It allows us to get at things like why is the Veil nebula such a pretty purple color?  It is because of the oxygen in it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re able to get at different information about the compositions of nebula, the compositions of stars only because we have access to the ultraviolet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I think that one of the greatest space photos in my opinion is an ultraviolet image.  I think it was taken by FUSE of the star Myra which has this huge long glowing tail almost like a comet.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">FUSE built up this image of Myra.  We’ll be able to link to that in the show notes.  Was there anything else on ultraviolet that you thought should be brought up?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Nope, it is a fairly dangerous wavelength and we’ve now hit the bad for life part of the electromagnetic spectrum.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yes, so next up x-rays.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, welcome back to death and destruction.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Sweet, that’s what we like.  We’ll talk to you for the next show.</p>
</div>
<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/04/ep-134-ultraviolet-astronomy/' addthis:title='Ep. 134: Ultraviolet Astronomy '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090420.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>Our next visit in this tour through the electromagnetic spectrum is the ultraviolet. You can&#039;t see it, but anyone who&#039;s spent a day out in the hot sun without sunblock has sure experienced its effects. Ultraviolet radiation is associated with the birth...</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>Our next visit in this tour through the electromagnetic spectrum is the ultraviolet. You can&#039;t see it, but anyone who&#039;s spent a day out in the hot sun without sunblock has sure experienced its effects. Ultraviolet radiation is associated with the birth...</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Ep. 123: Homogeneity</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/01/ep-123-homogeneity/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/01/ep-123-homogeneity/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.astronomycast.com/?p=525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As astronomers discovered that we live in a great big universe, they considered a fundamental question: is the universe the same everywhere? Imagine if gravity was stronger billions of light years away&#8230; Or in the past. It sounds like a simple question, but the answer has been tricky to unravel. Ep. 123: Homogeneity Jump to [...]<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/01/ep-123-homogeneity/' addthis:title='Ep. 123: Homogeneity '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div id="attachment_526" class="wp-caption alignleft" style="width: 160px"><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hubbledeepfield.jpg"><img class="size-thumbnail wp-image-526" title="Hubble Deep Field." src="http://www.astronomycast.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/hubbledeepfield-150x150.jpg" alt="Hubble Deep Field." width="150" height="150" /></a><p class="wp-caption-text">Hubble Deep Field.</p></div>
<p>As astronomers discovered that we live in a great big universe, they considered a fundamental question: is the universe the same everywhere? Imagine if gravity was stronger billions of light years away&#8230; Or in the past. It sounds like a simple question, but the answer has been tricky to unravel.</p>
<p><span id="more-525"></span></p>
<table>
<tr>
<td>
<li><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090112.mp3">Ep. 123: Homogeneity</a></strong></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<div style="clear: both;"></div>
<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<p><strong>Homogeneity Show Notes</strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://chrislintott.net/">Chris Lintott</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Lintott">Chris&#8217;s page on Wiki<br />
</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.galaxyzoo.org/">Galaxy Zoo</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle">The Cosmological Principal </a>&#8211; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://eprintweb.org/S/article/astro-ph/0809.3734">Abstract:  A measurement of large-scale peculiar velocities of clusters of galaxies:  results and cosmological implications &#8212; Kashlinsky, A., <em>et al.</em> (2008)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=453">Why do we assume that the Universe is homogeneic and isotropic for all observers?</a> &#8212; Cornell U.</li>
<li><a href="http://universeadventure.org/big_bang/expand-balance.htm">Homogeneic and Isotropic -</a>- Universe Adventure</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astro.columbia.edu/~lhui/CUtalks/CUtalk1PD.pdf">Presentation:  Dark Energy and the Homogeneous Universe</a> &#8212; Columbia University</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/03/28/galaxy-zoo-results-show-that-the-universe-isnt-lopsided/">Galaxy Zoo Results Show the Universe Isn&#8217;t Lopsided </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.galaxyzooblog.org/2008/01/10/in-the-eye-of-the-beholder/">&#8220;In the Eye of the Beholder&#8221; &#8212; testing the anti-clockwise bias </a>&#8211; Galaxy Zoo Blog</li>
<li><a href="http://background.uchicago.edu/~whu/beginners/introduction.html">Intro to the Cosmic Microwave Background </a>&#8211; U of Chicago</li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/">WMAP</a></li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_cosmo_infl.html">Inflation Theory </a>&#8211; WMAP site</li>
<li><a href="http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/cosmo.htm">Inflation for Beginners </a>&#8211; from Cosmology for Beginners</li>
<li><a href="http://www.sdss.org/">Sloan Digital Sky Survey</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12574">&#8220;Swiss Cheese Universe Challenges Dark Energy&#8221; </a>&#8211; New Scientist</li>
<li><a href="http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/feature20081222.html">What Can Swiss Cheese Teach us About Dark Energy? </a>&#8211; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html">Smoothness of the CMB -</a>- NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/mysteries_l2/lumpy.html">The Lumpy Universe </a>&#8211; NASA</li>
<li><a href="http://cosmology.lbl.gov/talks/LoVerde_08.pdf">Presentation:  Observations Through a Lumpy Universe </a>&#8211; Columbia University</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/09/23/scientists-detect-dark-flow-matter-from-beyond-the-visible-universe/">Astronomers Detect &#8216;Dark Flow&#8217; of Matter from Beyond the Visible Universe </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/physics/relativity/ep-117-time/">Astronomy Cast episode on Time (117)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://tf.nist.gov/cesium/fountain.htm">Cesium Fountain Atomic Clock</a></li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light#Varying_c_in_time">Was the speed of light different in the early Universe?</a> &#8212; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://universe.nasa.gov/press/2004/040225a.html">Cosmic Dark Ages</a> &#8212; NASA</li>
<li><a href="Timothy Clifton, Pedro Ferreira, and Kate Land ">The Dark Energy Illusion</a> &#8212; Intro article and links to paper by Timothy Clifton, Pedro Ferreira, and Kate Land</li>
<li><a href="http://365daysofastronomy.org/2009/01/04/january-4-who-ordered-the-dark-matter-and-dark-energy/">Who Ordered the Dark Energy and Dark Matter? -</a>- Pamela and Fraser&#8217;s 365 Days of Astronomy podcast</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/07/21/the-cosmic-void-could-we-be-in-the-middle-of-it/">Are We in the Middle of a Cosmic Void? </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.lsst.org/lsst">Large Synoptic Survey Telescope</a></li>
</ul>
<p><strong>Books: </strong></p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Isotropic-Universe-Derek-J-Raine/dp/0750304049">The Isotropic Universe by Derek J. Raine</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Inflationary-Universe-Alan-Guth/dp/0201328402/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1232645654&amp;sr=1-1">The Inflationary Universe by Alan Guth</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Quantum-Gravity-Wormholes-Science/dp/1601630034/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1232645654&amp;sr=1-7">The Unknown Universe by Richard Hammond</a></li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: Homogeneity</h3>
<p><strong>Download the transcript</strong></p>
<p><!-- 		@page { margin: 0.79in } 		P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } 		A:link { color: #0000ff } --></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay:</strong> With me this week while Fraser is on a well-deserved vacation is Dr. Chris Lintott of Oxford Astrophysics.  Good afternoon Chris.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Chris Lintott:</strong> Hi, there.  How are you?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I’m doing well.  We survived! We’ve been down here in Long Beach, California for the 213<sup>th</sup> meeting of the American Astronomical Society and the launch of the International Year of Astronomy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong> Well congratulations you helped to launch the International Year of Astronomy in the U.S. I noticed.  The rest of us will catch up next week when that’s the International launch. [Laughter] But it was great fun.  We had a movie premier which was excellent – free beer and all sorts of good things.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> All courtesy of Interstellar Studios and it was the launch of 400 Years of the Telescope.  We had Galileo Beer from Sierra Nevada.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong>And the Second Life Island opened.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The Second Life Island opened.  We had George Hrab from the Geologic Podcast who does the theme music for 365 Days of Astronomy.  Which you all should go and subscribe to at iTunes.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Which I do an episode for so..</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yes you do and we already have some AstronomyCast episodes in there.  So yeah, we got through. Fraser’s now on vacation and you and I are here to make sure that AstronomyCast keeps going through all these different chaotic wonderful things.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This week we’re going to talk about the Cosmological Principle.  As astronomers discovered that we live in a great big Universe they considered a fundamental question.  Is the Universe the same everywhere?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Imagine if gravity was stronger billions of light years away, or in the past.  It sounds like a simple question but the answer has been tricky to unravel.  The answer kind of starts with this crazy thing called the Cosmological Principle.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> So now you just want me to explain it.  [Laughter] I love the way that you make it sound like it’s got the capital letters it deserves.  Before we tell you what it is, let me explain why it is important.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Cosmological Principle isn’t something we’ve discovered about the Universe.  This isn’t like the age of the Universe or the process by which galaxies form or even the fact that most of the matter is in the form of this mysterious dark matter.  Those are facts that we’ve established.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Cosmological Principle is an assumption that we must make in order to say anything about the Universe as a whole.  What we have to do is we have to assume that the bit of the Universe we can see and get information from is typical of the whole because if that’s true then we can make local measurements.  We can do the equivalent of a table top experiment on our bit of the Universe.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can measure the density and say this must be the density of the whole Universe.  We can look at the conditions around us and say these must be the conditions in the whole Universe.  That enables us to do any cosmology.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We can say things about the Universe as a whole.  Not just our little bit of the Universe looks like it started 13.7 billion years ago but the whole Universe began 13.7 billion years ago.  For these grandiose claims you need to make this assumption.  You need to say the Universe is big and we live in a typical small part of it.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> And so having reached this mediocre state of being nothing special, nowhere special and perhaps as we’ll talk more on this show, in no when special we move on and we look at two big concepts.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The idea that the Universe is <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">homogenaic</span> and that the Universe is isotropic and with isotropic it’s your work with Galaxy Zoo that’s actually helped look at evidentially how can we say isotropic is real?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> In the small way.  Another way of stating the Cosmological Principle, keep in the back of your head during this episode, all it is, is that we don’t have anywhere special.  We have to think about it in technical ways if we want to test it.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One way to say it technically is the Universe is both homogeneous on large scales, and isotropic. Now what isotropic means we take that first is that it looks the same in all directions.  So if I look right into the distant Universe I will see a Universe that looks much like the one I see if I look left.  Same if I look up and look down, that way it doesn’t matter which direction I choose to look in.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Universe is the same on large scales.  So we’d like to test that.  One way to do that is to look at galaxies.  You can set up a <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">thought</span> experiment.  Let’s look out of the window in the hotel room here.  Imagine every galaxy in that direction was rotating clockwise, all in the same direction.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Now imagine an alien astronomycast presenter [Laughter] well, another alien astronomycast presenter, looking back from the other side at those galaxies.  We see them clockwise, he, she or it would see them moving anti-clockwise.  So, there you have a measurement that depends on which direction you’re looking.  In that Universe isotropy is broken.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So we thought with Galaxy Zoo inspired by the work of Michael Longo we should double check this wasn’t the case and to our horror, we found as most of your listeners know by now, more galaxies appear to be going anti-clockwise than clockwise.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The reason this result was so disturbing and controversial and why I had great fun stirring up cosmologists [Laughter] with this is if that had been true then in some sense the Cosmological Principle is broken and you wouldn’t be able to say anything at all about the large-scale Universe.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Now what it turns out is, it’s more the human mind is a little bit broken.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Sure, we have a bias we think and that means that actually when we do the test properly, looking at mirror images and so on – on galaxyzoo.org – in case any of your listeners haven’t come and helped us out, then we find consistency with Isoptropy.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Astronomers aren’t satisfied with that they weren’t hanging around waiting for us.  What you want to do is test these things on the largest scale possible.  So we look at our largest scale observation of the Universe which is the Microwave Background.  This is as you know radiation emitted 300,000 years or so after the Big Bang from the point where light suddenly was able to travel across the whole Universe.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We have an entire AstronomyCast episode about this so go check it out if you want to learn more about the Cosmic Microwave Background.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> And if you’re still here, [Laughter] then all you need to know for the CMB at this point is that it is a picture of the Universe – part of the Universe as it was 300,000 years after the beginning.  In fact, we find it works.  If you look to the right then look to the left, if you look up and you look down you see a Universe that looks very similar.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">For example you can characterize this Universe by temperature.  The Universe is the same temperature at that time to better than one part in 10,000 wherever you look.  It is incredibly smooth.  Actually it is so smooth that it causes a problem.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is actually quite troubling because we’re just starting to see the light – by definition – that’s traveling from the left side and we’re just starting to receive the light that’s traveling from the right side.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong>So they haven’t had time to cross or to communicate with each other.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> How do they know what temperature to be?  How do they know what distribution of hot and cold spots they should have?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong>The famous way of looking at this is even if there are monsters in each part of the Universe with heaters and fridges whose job it is to try and match the temperature with their other monster colleagues, there’s no way they could do so.  They can’t talk to each other so they can’t coordinate their activities.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> These parts of the Universe are accelerating themselves apart with the Universe’s expansion.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong>So they will never talk to each other.  The monsters will be left alone [Laughter] with a fridge and a heater and presumably some sort of electricity supply.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s a fundamental problem called the Cosmic Conspiracy.  One way out of it – monsters aside – is to just say there’s something about the Big Bang that produces smooth Universes.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>This is where we invoke the idea of inflation.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott</strong>: Sure, inflation is the idea that, take your standard Big Bang, something happened, the Universe has been expanding, and just allow me to tweak it slightly so that in the first tiny fraction of a second there was an incredibly rapid expansion.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> After those two pieces of the Universe talk to each other?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong>Yes because then you can have a much smaller Universe to begin with.  The monsters can communicate.  Light can travel from one side to the other.  Even if there were random fluctuations in temperature, then heat will flow from the hot region to the cold region and things will reach equilibrium and then you expand and then you have the Universe we see today.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So, inflation is another route out of this. But we’ve digressed a long way from the Cosmological Principle.  The point was we’re halfway there.  We have an Isotropic Universe as far as we can see.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Then the next thing we have to start worrying about is the idea of homogeneity. Here side scale starts to become very important.  You look around our own planet Earth and compare it to Mars – very different worlds.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Look around our solar system.  Our solar system isn’t like other solar systems that we’ve found so far. There are probably some out there like us somewhere.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Look at our galaxy.  Our galaxy is part of a local group that is a bit different from the stuff beside it.  So, on these small scales everything is a little bit different.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> To make it even more simple than that, if we want to, we don’t really mind whether it is a planet or galaxy or whatever.  Take a box, let’s say a meter cubed.  Let’s put that box down somewhere in the Universe and ask how much matter is there within it.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Obviously I’m going to get a different answer if I put it down in the middle of the Earth [Laughter] it will have much more mass than if I put it down a hundred miles up above my head where there will be very little.  Yet there will still be more there than if I put it a billion light years away, not in the middle of any galaxy.  The odds are there will be nothing at all.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So you see the density on that scale changes.  It matters where in the Universe I put the box.  If I have a much larger box, a really large one, say a billion light years on the side, then wherever I put that in the Universe the assumption we’re making is that there’ll be roughly the same amount within it.  The Universe is homogeneous on that scale.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If you want a local analogy, take cake.  It’s always good to take cake. [Laughter] Imagine a sponge cake with raisins in it.  It matters if you have a pin prick you put into the cake. It will matter whether you go into the cake or you go into a raisin. So on those scales, the scale of a pin head; you get very different answers to what the cake is as you prod your pin in and out.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">But if you look at a box, if you take a slice of cake it doesn’t matter where that slice comes from, as long as you’re not picky about icing on the top [Laughter] or whatever, because you’ll always get raisins and cake in roughly the same constituency. So you want a big enough box that you care about raisins and cake and not about individual things.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We see this just within subdivisions here in the United States.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> What’s a subdivision?</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, this is where for whatever reasons developers decide everyone is going to live in very similar houses with very similar yards.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> In English we say estate, but still.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> So I’m sitting in my plain Jane back yard on my plain Jane yard and the grass around me is a bit different than the back patio I can see.  But, if I expand my box to contain yard and patio I can start to average out.  It’s still lumpy, bumpy not very smooth.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If I instead expand my circle out and I take in my house, my yard, my neighbor’s houses and yards, there is still variety.  There is always that person with the pool.  There is always the person who decided to build an addition over the garage.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> But if you take a big enough section there is probably always two pools scattered among them.  They’ll be in different in places, attached to different houses but the density of the pool would be the same.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Anyone who has tried to find someone living in a subdivision knows that really, everything looks the same.  Everywhere, once you’re trapped within all the winding roads.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Sure, so what this boils down to is you’ve got take a big enough box for our Universe to be homogeneous. We need it to be so so that the Cosmological Principle applies and cosmologists can be happy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Have we had a big enough box to test it?  I think the answer is just about no. Obviously our galaxy scale box won’t do.  Obviously the size of the local group won’t do.  You must have something bigger than the biggest galaxy clusters.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The biggest view of the Universe we’ve got is the Sloan Digital Sky Survey, a picture of a million galaxies. Even on the scale of the Sloan survey, it’s not quite big enough to see homogeneous.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There are very large fluctuations across the Sloan, some very large scale features which may or may not be important. So if we go a bit bigger than that we believe that we’re dealing with a homogeneous Universe.  But we’re not sure.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We live basically in a Swiss cheese Universe. The problem is well we all know Swiss cheese has holes and well cheesy bits of various different sizes.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of the problems we also have in trying to understand these issues of scale is the Universe’s structure is evolving over time and we have to correct for that in some ways.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Yes, once you get to very big.  With Sloan we’re just about okay.  Once we get to the big scales we have to worry about changes with time.  So think about it.  We talked about the Microwave Background, this very smooth but not quite smooth, tiny fluctuation, one part in 10,000 at early Universe.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">And yet we look around us today and we have this galaxy cluster or not galaxy cluster, very lumpy Universe.  Both are homogeneous as far as we can tell.  But the scale of the fluctuations has changed.  That’s entirely due to the beautiful work of gravity which takes the small fluctuations that existed at the beginning and exaggerates them.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You mentioned being in a region in the Microwave Background Universe, 300,000 years after the Big Bang.  That has more matter than its surroundings.  It will have slightly stronger gravitational pulls so material will tend on average to flow into it and away from the less dense regions.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. These differences exaggerate every time you go from the smooth Universe of the CMB to the fluctuations we see today.  It’s a great triumph of modern cosmology that that calculation works out correctly.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">But if you start with the observed Microwave Background, apply what we know about gravity and this other force, dark energy that I’m sure we’ll get on to at some point, you produce something that looks much like the web of galaxies that we see today.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> What’s really neat is there have been some recent studies where they’re trying to figure out the bulk motions of one group of galaxies relative to another.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You start adding up the forces you get from this cluster over here, that cluster over there and you actually have to take into account that lack of gravity coming from these voids in space.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Sure the regions that aren’t pulling you quite as closely as the galaxy cluster on the other side.  We actually see some of these motions on very large scales.  The work is slightly controversial.  There were some press releases and papers out a few months ago.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There’s a suggestion that cross motion of the Sloan is a net motion in one direction.  If that’s true, that means we haven’t yet reached the scale on which things are homogeneous.  Just outside our field of vision there must be a really big compression of matter pulling us in that direction.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the things that we have to deal with as we look out and we try and decipher the evolution of the Universe from the not quite but mostly smooth Cosmic Microwave Background to today’s Swiss cheese Universe is we’re assuming a model that has a given amount of mass, a given amount of energy and gravity affecting things in a consistent way.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Ah, okay now this is the hard question, right?  So far we’ve dealt with Cosmological Principle as if it depends on space.  We’ve talked about this being a special place, but of course that’s not the only problem.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Imagine, let’s be archaeologists looking at the surface, or anthropologists looking at the Earth.  You’d want to make the same assumption.  If you’re going to take a small region of the Earth’s surface and study the people there you want to know that that is typical in order to draw conclusions about the whole of human population.</p>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">However, you’d also want to know what time you were living in and see whether you were living in a special time.  If you were in Rome 2000 years ago, you would draw very different conclusions from studying Rome today.  For all I know the chariots driving habits were the same. [Laughter] You know what I mean.  Time is very important.  We have to be careful not to make the same mistake with the Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In particular, we just assume that the laws of physics that we measure in the lab today are those that governed the Universe of 300,000 years after the Big Bang of three seconds after the Big Bang; of three micro-seconds after the Big Bang.  And all the way back we assume physics is the same.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the nice things is that even though we are making this rather radical assumption, we’re able to build mathematically consistent models that allow us to in computers simulate what we’re actually observing.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Right so that’s one way we can be sure that things are working.  We make the simple assumption that physics works and so far so good.  But we can also test it directly.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Let’s take something simple.  Let’s assume that all of physics is the same.  Einstein’s still right wherever you are in the Universe and quantum mechanics does whatever quantum mechanics does and all the rest.  Let’s change one thing.  Let’s change the speed of light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Now, the speed of light is one of those numbers that crops up all over physics.  It’s sort of like Pi and <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Fe </span>but the difference is it actually has meaning.  It describes the rate at which photons travel through space.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> It has such meaning.  It’s the fundamental definition of the second.  But what it means to count time depends on the speed of light.  We count oscillations in cesium.  Is that correct?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It’s cesium it’s the resonance.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> I’ve got a feeling they may have changed it do a different more&#8230;</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> No, it’s still cesium. We did an episode on this recently so if you want to know more about time, go back three or four episodes.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> I hope I’m getting paid for every [Laughter] astronomycast episode that I’ve&#8230;</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I’m not getting paid.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Anyway, the point is so the speed of light is something we can physically measure.  It’s at the heart of the Theory of Relativity.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Everyone seems to know.  They only know two things about Einstein, they know E=mc<sup>2</sup> probably a topic for a show you’ve already done.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yes.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> There you go.  And they know that the speed of light is a constant, at least in a vacuum.  The true statement is in a vacuum.  So, given that everyone knows this, can we test it in the early Universe?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The answer amazingly is yes.  We can measure the speed of light not just here but we can measure the speed of light a billion years after the Big Bang.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is because of the fine-structure constant which is one of those quantities that helps describe in quantum mechanics the energy level transitions that cause light to be released at very specific wavelengths in different atoms where each element has its own fingerprint of allowed colors of light that it emits.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> So when you look at a street light that distinguishing yellow glow is because sodium always emits in the yellow for example.  When we look at distant galaxies we see loads and loads of these lines from all the different elements that are there.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s how we know what galaxies are made of.  You can take one particular element like hydrogen for example and you see literally hundreds of lines in the spectrum of the galaxy from just hydrogen.  Now the gaps between those lines depends on this thing called the fine-structure constant.  It doesn’t matter what it is, one over 137 or so in appropriate units.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s nicely [Laughter] memorable. But that depends on the speed of light.  So if the speed of light changed when we looked at distant galaxies we should see this ladder of lines due to hydrogen changing and we don’t.  We see them in exactly the same ratio as they should be to better than one part in a hundred.  There’s no evidence for any change whatsoever.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> That better than one part in a hundred is an error bar.  Not saying that it’s changing within that.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> No, it’s consistent to zero.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes as near as we can tell the speed of light is the speed of light is the speed of light. As we build progressively larger and larger telescopes we’re looking back to the very first galaxies that have ever formed. With those first lights from elements being emitted you see this consistent fingerprinting of the elements.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott</strong>: We do but you’ve still got a problem because that only takes us back to alright I’ll concede the earliest galaxies were, so first galaxies maybe half a billion years?  Something like that after the Big Bang?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So let’s say we can repeat this experiment from that.  We’re not far off being able to do that and yet I’m sure the speed of light would be consistent with being a constant back then.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">That’s not enough because lots of the things we’d like to explain happened before that.  For example we talked earlier about the smoothness of the early Universe, the isoptropy of it the fact that temperature was the same on one side of the sky as the other.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You, I think or one of us brought up the idea of inflation as a solution to this, this rapid expansion.  Which works, it solves this problem and a few others.  I always describe it matches this as trading several problems for one crazy idea because that’s what it is.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There is no physical reason to believe in inflation.  There’s no theory that tells us that the Universe should suddenly it sped up its like expansion.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>It’s just mathematically works.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Sort of, it’s not even that but it’s if you allow this to happen by forcing the equations to do it, then you’ve solved lots of your problems. So, physicists are alert for other solutions which might be more elegant and solve the same thing.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One such set of theories is called variable speed of light theory or VSL.  It’s been worked on and off for the last 20-30 years by a whole variety of people, particularly by <span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="text-decoration: none;"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_Magueijo">João Magueijo</a> at the Imperial College in London who wrote a book on the subject.  The book is called “Faster than the Speed of Light” and it’s possibly the rudest cosmology book [Laughter] I’ve ever read. </span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="text-decoration: none;">It’s worth it for entertainment value alone, you should read the book.  His idea is that if the speed of light changed dramatically in those early days before we can measure it, then you can get away with inflation.  You can allow different parts of the Universe to talk to each other.  You can see how this might happen. </span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="text-decoration: none;">If you speed up the speed of light then the seemingly disparate parts of the Universe can communicate very quickly.  It’s like having high speed broadband connection [Laughter] and instead of resorting to dial-up. They can reach the same temperature and then the Universe can go on with its merry way with the speed of light settling down to normal.  It’s a beautiful, probably wrong idea. </span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #0000ff;"><span style="color: #000000;"><span style="text-decoration: none;">But it at least seems to fit within the way we’d like scientific discovery to go. Newton wasn’t wrong.  You can fly to the moon with Mr. Newton.  He was just inaccurate at high speeds or near large masses.  So maybe, the suggestion goes, Einstein wasn’t wrong.  The speed of light is constant except in the early Universe.</span></span></span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> This always gets us to the question of testability.  The problem is, right now we have fingerprints going back to the formation of the first galaxies. When we try and look back before that, we can’t.  It’s the cosmic dark ages when we’re in a Universe where there’s just nothing hanging around emitting new light.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Actually there’s a lot more work to be done on the theory.  So, who knows?  It may be the theory will make predictions as to how things will change later in the Universe.  At the minute it’s still not much more than a fun idea.  It’s a toy idea.  I don’t mean that as derogatory as it sounded.  It’s a description of “let’s break this and see what happens” physicists’ model.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Let me give you another example though.  We’ve been playing with breaking the Cosmological Principle in the early Universe.  There are reasons to want it to be broken nearby as well.  A few radical cosmologists are beginning to advocate.  Lots of people have been involved in this.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There was some recent work that got me thinking from my next door neighbor in Oxford, Tim Clifton who has the office next to me and Pedro Ferreira and Kate Land from Galaxy Zoo.  They’ve been thinking about how to get rid of this pesky dark energy.  Now you must have an episode on dark energy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>I think it was the last one we recorded.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> There you go.  Dark energy is an accelerating force that is apparently driving the expansion of the Universe onward and onward and onward faster and faster.  No one ordered it.  No one wanted it in their model of the Universe.  It doesn’t make any sense and we don’t understand it.  We just see its effect.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Most cosmological effort is going into trying to explain it, to pin down its properties and explain what this accelerating force is.  Or, you can allow me to do the following thing, saying Tim, Pedro and Kate. Allow us to be somewhere special.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In fact, allow us to be sitting not in a perfectly typical region of the Universe but near the center of a large void.  A region of space that has less stuff in it than the surroundings, than the average and that gets rid of dark energy it turns out for a very simple reason.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">When we talk about the expansion history of the Universe – accelerations and decelerations and gravity and dark energy – what we’re really talking about is a local measurement at the rate of expansion.  We measure that here and we get a certain value.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> And this is after we’ve corrected for all the local motion.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Yeah and all that astrophysics nonsense [Laughter] as well and understood the stars we’re looking at and so on. That’s just detail.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Imagine being in the center of the void and we look out further and further and we make this measurement by looking at supernovae or Cepheid variables or whatever your standard candle of choice is.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> And we have a show on this.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Sure, excellent [Laughter] you’re good.  Your competition for this week is to string all the AstronomyCast episodes into one sentence and [Laughter] send it to me.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The point was, as you look further and further away and you’re leaving the void so you’re measuring the expansion in a Universe that appears to be getting denser, more gravity, and greater pull back on the expansion so there’s slower expansion.  So as we look out of the void the expansion slows down.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">That’s the same as looking in the past so we interpret that as an acceleration.  Who knows if that’s true?  The scale of the void that you need turns out to be very deep. We need to be about two-thirds of the average density of the whole Universe.  That’s quite a large discrepancy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> But we know that there are huge variations in density across the Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott: </strong>We don’t see anything on that scale on what we can see.  So then the question is what scale must this point be? You’ll be amused to know, no doubt, the prediction is that it should be slightly larger than our existing surveys can detect.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In other words if we had something that went twice as deep as the Sloan Digital Sky Survey does then we’d see the edge of the void and we’d see this increase in density.  So, it’s a prediction.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">If this exists, if we happen to be living not just in a point but near the center of it – we need to be at the center of it – otherwise we’d see the difference if we looked in different directions.  But we know we don’t do that.  If we live in such a world, we can get rid of dark energy and we can all react.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It will take the advent of the next generation of sky surveys, particularly the Large Synoptic Survey Telescope, in let’s hope 2015 [Laughter] no let’s hope for 2015.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I know.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Lintott:</strong> Let’s hope for 2015 to do that.  At least it is a prediction. For now we’ll cling to the Cosmological Principle.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> So we have a theory, we have a test, we have a telescope on the way and when everything goes live and when the science results are back, we’re going to have to have you back on the show Chris.  It’s been a pleasure.</p>
</div>
<div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/01/ep-123-homogeneity/' addthis:title='Ep. 123: Homogeneity '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></content:encoded>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090112.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>As astronomers discovered that we live in a great big universe, they considered a fundamental question: is the universe the same everywhere? Imagine if gravity was stronger billions of light years away... Or in the past. It sounds like a simple question,</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>As astronomers discovered that we live in a great big universe, they considered a fundamental question: is the universe the same everywhere? Imagine if gravity was stronger billions of light years away... Or in the past. It sounds like a simple question, but the answer has been tricky to unravel.




Ep. 123: Homogeneity
Jump to Shownotes
Jump to Transcript or Download (coming soon!)





Shownotes
Homogeneity Show Notes

	Chris Lintott
	Chris&#039;s page on Wiki

	Galaxy Zoo
	The Cosmological Principal -- Wiki
	Abstract:  A measurement of large-scale peculiar velocities of clusters of galaxies:  results and cosmological implications -- Kashlinsky, A., et al. (2008)
	Why do we assume that the Universe is homogeneic and isotropic for all observers? -- Cornell U.
	Homogeneic and Isotropic -- Universe Adventure
	Presentation:  Dark Energy and the Homogeneous Universe -- Columbia University
	Galaxy Zoo Results Show the Universe Isn&#039;t Lopsided -- Universe Today
	&quot;In the Eye of the Beholder&quot; -- testing the anti-clockwise bias -- Galaxy Zoo Blog
	Intro to the Cosmic Microwave Background -- U of Chicago
	WMAP
	Inflation Theory -- WMAP site
	Inflation for Beginners -- from Cosmology for Beginners
	Sloan Digital Sky Survey
	&quot;Swiss Cheese Universe Challenges Dark Energy&quot; -- New Scientist
	What Can Swiss Cheese Teach us About Dark Energy? -- NASA
	Smoothness of the CMB -- NASA
	The Lumpy Universe -- NASA
	Presentation:  Observations Through a Lumpy Universe -- Columbia University
	Astronomers Detect &#039;Dark Flow&#039; of Matter from Beyond the Visible Universe -- Universe Today
	Astronomy Cast episode on Time (117)
	Cesium Fountain Atomic Clock
	Was the speed of light different in the early Universe? -- Wiki
	Cosmic Dark Ages -- NASA
	The Dark Energy Illusion -- Intro article and links to paper by Timothy Clifton, Pedro Ferreira, and Kate Land
	Who Ordered the Dark Energy and Dark Matter? -- Pamela and Fraser&#039;s 365 Days of Astronomy podcast
	Are We in the Middle of a Cosmic Void? -- Universe Today
	Large Synoptic Survey Telescope

Books: 

	The Isotropic Universe by Derek J. Raine
	The Inflationary Universe by Alan Guth
	The Unknown Universe by Richard Hammond



Transcript: Homogeneity
Download the transcript


Dr. Pamela Gay: With me this week while Fraser is on a well-deserved vacation is Dr. Chris Lintott of Oxford Astrophysics.  Good afternoon Chris.

Dr. Chris Lintott: Hi, there.  How are you?

Pamela: I’m doing well.  We survived! We’ve been down here in Long Beach, California for the 213th meeting of the American Astronomical Society and the launch of the International Year of Astronomy.

Dr. Lintott:  Well congratulations you helped to launch the International Year of Astronomy in the U.S. I noticed.  The rest of us will catch up next week when that’s the International launch. [Laughter] But it was great fun.  We had a movie premier which was excellent – free beer and all sorts of good things.

Pamela: All courtesy of Interstellar Studios and it was the launch of 400 Years of the Telescope.  We had Galileo Beer from Sierra Nevada.

Dr. Lintott: And the Second Life Island opened.

Pamela: The Second Life Island opened.  We had George Hrab from the Geologic Podcast who does the theme music for 365 Days of Astronomy.  Which you all should go and subscribe to at iTunes.

Dr. Lintott: Which I do an episode for so..

Pamela: Yes you do and we already have some AstronomyCast episodes in there.  So yeah, we got through. Fraser’s now on vacation and you and I are here to make sure that AstronomyCast keeps going through all these different chaotic wonderful things.

This week we’re going to talk about the Cosmological Principle.  As astronomers discovered that we live in a great big Universe they considered a fundamental question.  Is the Universe the same everywhere?

Imagine if gravity was stronger billions of light years away, or in the past.</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
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		<title>Ep. 122: How Old is the Universe?</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/01/ep-122-how-old-is-the-universe/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2009/01/ep-122-how-old-is-the-universe/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<ol>We did a wildly popular three part series about the center, size and shape of the Universe. But every good trilogy needs a 4th episode. This week we look at age of the Universe. How old is the Universe, and how do we know? And how has this number changed over time as astronomers have gotten better tools and techniques?</p>
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<li><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090106.mp3">Ep. 122: How Old is the Universe?</a></strong></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
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<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<li> <strong>Astronomy Cast/Universe Today/Astroblogger Meetup</strong></li>
<li>If you live near Long Beach or are there for the AAS meeting, meet Pamela, Fraser, and all the Astronomy Cast LIVE team at a <strong>&#8220;Blogger Meet-up&#8221; on Wed. January 7 </strong>at the <a href="http://www.rockbottom.com/DisplayLocationRBR.php?FKLocationID=10071">Rock Bottom Brewery</a> from  6pm &#8211; 9pm.</li>
<li>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_age.html">How old is the Universe? </a> &#8212; WMAP</li>
<li><a href="http://www.aip.org/history/curie/age-of-earth.htm">A &#8220;history of the history&#8221; of the Universe </a>&#8211; American Institute of Physics</li>
<li><a href="http://www.superstringtheory.com/cosmo/cosmo1.html">How old is the Universe? </a> &#8211;Superstring Theory.com</li>
<li><a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date.htm">Different &#8220;religious&#8221; beliefs about the Earth&#8217;s age</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/creation.html">Other creation myths</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/index.html">The Age of the Earth and the Formation of the Universe </a>&#8211; U of South Dakota</li>
<li><a href="http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/failed_scientific_clocks.html">Failed scientific attempts to determine the age of the Universe &#8211;</a> U of South Dakota<a href="http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/failed_scientific_clocks.html"><br />
</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/current_scientific_clocks.html">Current scientific &#8220;clocks&#8221; to determine age of the Universe &#8212; </a>U of South Dakota</li>
<li><a href="http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/geology/tectonics.html">Plate tectonics over time </a>&#8211; UC Berkeley</li>
<li><a href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/ast99/ast99205.htm">What fuels the sun?</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/guide-to-space/the-solar-system/how-old-is-the-solar-system/">How old is the solar system? </a>&#8211; Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorrit_Hoffleit">Dorrit Hoffleit </a>&#8211; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/hr.html">Hertzsprung Russell Diagram</a> &#8212; Atlas of the Universe</li>
<li><a href="http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/">WMAP </a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.lsst.org/lsst">Large Synoptic Survey Telescope</a></li>
<li><a href="http://cosmolog.org.uk/archives/2004_01.html">One view of the initial conditions of the Universe </a>&#8211; Cosmilog</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/mysteries_l1/origin_destiny.html">Origin and Density of the Universe</a> &#8212; GSFS</li>
<li><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Just-Six-Numbers-Forces-Universe/dp/0465036732/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1231303784&amp;sr=8-1">Book:  Just Six Numbers:  The  Deep Forces that Shape the Universe by Martin Rees</a></li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: How Old is the Universe?</h3>
<p><strong>Download the transcript</strong>
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<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser Cane: </strong>We are at the winter meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Long Beach, California.  We are busy blogging and reporting news. Pamela is working on the International Year of Astronomy and we have found a quiet moment to do an episode of AstronomyCast because we thought it would be very cool to do this while we’re in the same location.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re going to stay on topic and have a real show for you.  We did a popular three-part series about the center, size and shape of the Universe about a year ago, but every good trilogy needs a fourth episode. [Laughter]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">This week we look at the age of the Universe.  How old is the Universe and how do we know?  And how has this number changed over time as astronomers have gotten better tools and techniques?  Actually, let’s have this conversation backwards.  How old do we know the Universe is right now?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay:</strong> Thirteen point 7 plus or minus .2 billion years.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Thirteen point 7 plus or minus .2 billion years, right.  Then how does that compare to the history of knowing how old the Universe is over time?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the really cool things was except for the last few oscillations zooming in on the accurate number; the Universe just keeps getting older and older and older.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There’s the always what if it’s infinitely old?  We’re going to ignore infinity.  People who say less than infinity in general the age just keeps getting older and they seem to have finally settled on a nice old Universe to live with it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> So how old then did people used to think the Universe was?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It tended to settle out to a few thousand years based on a few thousand begats.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right then you would have written oral history in all cultures and as far back as people could remember as far back as people could describe their existence.  That was the Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">They all had a mythological creation myth that described their beginning.  I guess it all depends on the culture and what people would think was the beginning of the Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Everything from coming up out of the Earth to… Every society had its own way of getting the original humans on the planet from some sort of a holy beginning.  Then you just count generations.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right so then when did science have a shot at it?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>People started trying to figure out how to think about this scientifically a few hundred years ago. There were a whole variety of techniques that were put into play.  Everything from if the Sun is made of coal, how long could it have lasted to well we know how salt is getting into the ocean, we know roughly how it is coming out so based on the salinity of the ocean how old is the Earth?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I guess that tells you how old the Earth is and I guess they thought the Earth and the Universe were formed at the same time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right there was no reason to believe anything different.  We’ve worked on all of these problems.  One of the other things that also becomes problematic is we know that different things burn at different rates.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Wood burns at a different efficiency than coal which is very different from nuclear burning.  By just starting from the base assumption that the Universe is the same age as the Sun, but then not understanding how the Sun burns, you end up with a far younger Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">By looking at the surface of the Earth and not taking into consideration things like plate techtonics – the fact that the surface of our Earth, the oceans of our Earth are constantly changing.  They are being remodeled as the surface of our Earth radically changes.  You also end up with a younger Earth.  It’s only in starting to understand that well we have plate techtonics.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The surface of the Earth is constantly shifting, constantly resurfacing.  The oceans we have today won’t be the oceans we had yesterday.  Only by understanding, and these are all last century’s discoveries, it’s only by understanding that the Sun is fueled via nuclear burning not through some chemical process that we’re able to extend out the age of our own solar system to roughly 5 billion years.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> You have to admire the scientists in the last few hundred years for even taking a crack at it.  Yes, the Sun isn’t made of coal, the Sun isn’t made of wood and so your calculations are worthless. [Laughter]  At least they had a shot at it and I think that’s pretty great.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> They were coming up with ages older than the begats so they were going against current thought.  Anytime a scientist is willing to say I did the calculations and it doesn’t match my philosophy but I’m going to trust the calculations.  That’s a step forward.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Then when did I guess scientists have a legitimate method of attempting to calculate the age of the Universe as opposed to something that in the end was fruitless?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> There are two things.  First you have to get past the Earth wasn’t created with the Universe and then it gets a lot more complicated.  But the first really legitimate scientific crack at getting a legitimate number was based on radioisotope dating.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You look at a pocket of material that you believe formed coincidental with the Earth.  So, grab yourself a good chunk of rock from space – a meteorite – and measure the isotopic abundances of things that undergo radioactive decay.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Make an assumption about well these materials must have formed with the solar system and we know how much decay has taken place so if you assume you had a pocket of some pure radioisotope undergoing decay and you measure how many parent and child atoms are left, you can start to age the rock.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There’s a whole bunch of different radioisotopes that can get used so you can end up with many different things all giving you the same number so that you can trust your results.  You can get error bars on your results.  Through radioisotope dating we start getting to a planet that is 4.5 to 5.5 billion years old, which is our current understanding.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and that we know fairly well.  When that was first figured out did astronomers just think well that’s it, that’s the age of the Universe?  They had a sense that planets and stars were forming at different rates at different times.  Some galaxies had star formation…</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, well radioisotope dating started before we really understood there were other galaxies out there.  That’s a very modern concept.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of the strangest moments I’ve ever had was Dorrit Hoffleit who unfortunately passed away a few years ago, was the oldest living female PhD and I had this conversation with her.  She was almost a hundred years old and I asked her: what was the most amazing discovery during your lifetime?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">I’m expecting like dark matter, expansion of the Universe, and she said that galaxies are separate island Universes.  That really puts that there are people alive today who didn’t know that was the case.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I might have mentioned this on an earlier show that my dad has an old astronomical text.  It is an old planisphere actually, and it was so old that it had the Andromeda nebula listed on it.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> It’s fabulous finding these in old Celestial maps and things.  So they were starting to understand that stars are stars about the time that they were getting radioisotope dating.  In terms of we have temperature and color related to one another, we were starting to get a handle on the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram which basically tells us what sorts of nuclear generation is going on in the center of a star.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We have a whole episode describing different things that power stars of different masses.  It’s a series we did. Once we started to get a handle on the evolution of stars and understanding that stars go from Hydrogen burning to all the way up through burning even Carbon in their cores.  Once we started to understand the methods of how stars lived their lives, we could start to estimate how long it takes them to live these lives.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Looking around the Universe, we discovered there are some things that have been around a long time. We aren’t all of one generation.  All because you know there are stars currently forming doesn’t mean the Earth wasn’t one of the first solar systems.  Our solar system wasn’t one of the very first solar systems created.  So we had to find things that we knew were older than our solar system that were associated with stars that had already lived lives far longer than our Sun’s life.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> How would you know that was the case?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, the first thing you need to do is, we understand that larger mass stars evolve faster than lower mass stars.  You look around and you start finding dead high mass objects.  This is where white dwarfs come in handy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Take a big star, but not too big, let it evolve.  Eventually it is going to breathe off a planetary nebula and leave behind a white dwarf.  Some of the old stars do this really fast and so we’d expect there to be white dwarfs even if all the stars formed at the same time that the Earth and the solar system formed.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The thing about white dwarfs is they form at extremely high temperatures and then cool off.  We know the rate at which they cool so you look for cool white dwarfs.  You can use these cool white dwarfs to place boundaries on age of the Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong>So a white dwarf of certain mass will tell you the size of the star that it was before it…</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Not so much.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> You won’t be able to tell it?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Pretty much all white dwarfs are the same size.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> They’re all the same size but the temperature of the white dwarf will tell you when the star died.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yes.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> You can then look for the oldest white dwarf you can find.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Exactly.  The other neat thing that you can do is there is what is called a main sequence turn off fitting.  Like I said, stars of different masses evolve at different rates. You look at a progression of well all of these high mass stars have died, the slightly lower mass section of stars have died and the even lower mass section of stars have died.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">You start finding systems where all the stars the size of the Sun have died.  With globular clusters, these are entire populations of stars orbiting galaxies like our Milky Way where all the higher mass stars have already died and so we look at them and go: Hmm, okay, so we know ten to fifteen billion years of evolution have gone on.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The problem is we don’t know the finest details of stellar evolution. We can’t exactly go in and explore the inner regions of a star.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> I’m thinking about for example I was watching the ceremonies for Remembrance Days in Canada and there was like ten World War I veterans at the ceremony in France.  But then there was 300-400 World War II vets at that.  Then there was a whole bunch of Korean War vets and so on.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s kind of like as the time goes on the older stars are the ones that are dying off.  This is the same situation.  The oldest globular clusters that you’re looking at it’s like the highest mass stars are gone, then the next mass stars are gone. If you can look at whatever is the highest possible mass star there then that will tell you ‘X’ amount of years have passed already.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Then you have to start to figure out what is the nutrition of those humans, what is the ethnicity of those humans to know what they’re life expectancy is.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In the stars, we have similar complexities.  We need to know the finer details of how do the different elements in the stars affect their total life.  What are mass loss rates?  There are a lot of fine details we’re trying go understand.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of the great problems with astronomy as recently as 15 years ago was our understanding of stellar evolution gave us globular clusters that were 15-17 billion years old. Through other methods we kept coming up with a Universe that was 10 billion years old.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What’s another method then?  You’ve got one, boom, and plant your flag in the sand and say: “Aha!  The Universe is 17 billion years old; the Universe is 20 billion years old thanks to these globular clusters.”</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Astronomers really like to have more than one method to get at every data point.  We’re scientists.  We like to collect matching facts.  The other thing that we do is we look at the expansion of the Universe. Hubble back in the nineteen teens looked out and using initially <span style="background: transparent none repeat scroll 0% 0%; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous;">Vesta Slyferd </span>data that showed that more galaxies are moving away from us than are moving toward us by significant numbers.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Hubble started figuring out what’s the distance to these galaxies.  He realized that more distant galaxies are receding away from us faster than nearby ones.  He was able to build up a whole picture of the Universe expanding – we did an entire episode on this.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and so I can see another analogy.  We’ve used this one a few times.  You imagine your car and you know where it is now and you just measure backward and that tells you where it came from and you can calculate the time.  It’s physics 10 [Laughter] experiment math, right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>The only problem is that we generally start with the assumption – let’s just for the sake of making the math easy – assume that the expansion rate today matches the expansion rate in the past.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Which we know is a bit of a mistake.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> That’s kind of a huge leap of faith.  We look and say okay, Universe currently expanding at this rate.  Let’s run it backward until the entire Universe collapses in on itself.  That was giving us a number of roughly 10 billion years.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The thing is we didn’t know the expansion rate real accurately.  When I was an undergraduate, one of the most frequently used lines was:  “Well it’s somewhere between 50 and 100, use 100 it makes the math easier.” It turned out the number IS between 50 and 100.  It’s 72 as near as we can tell &#8211; which is a nice convenient number.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It’s 72 kilometers per second from mega parsec of space.  So grab yourself a mega parsec of the Universe, wait a second and it’s going to be 72 kilometers bigger in diameter. Without knowing accurately what the expansion rate is when you try and work backwards to how long did it take to get where it is, you can’t get an accurate solution.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">As we made our estimates, we’re ending up with the Universe being the wrong size.  We also sort of missed out on the whole fact that while the expansion rate is changing…</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> But I think that if you’ve got one line that tells you it is 10 billion and you’ve got the stars that tell you it is 17 billion, that’s within an order of magnitude.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">That’s good, right?  Does it go as high at a 100 billion?  [Laughter] It is a trillion?  Is it a quadrillion? You’ve got something.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>And for the most part astronomers go like “we’re on the right track!”  We were good with it.  We knew we had issues to solve.  We knew that we didn’t fully understand stellar evolution.  We knew it was all complex physics.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We knew that eventually we’d be able to measure the expansion rate of the Universe as we’re able to probe larger and larger distances in those larger and larger look-back times in the Universe.  We knew we’d get there.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The problem is you’re trying to explain this to the public.  It’s really confusing to say to the public, well the stars are older than the Universe.  They don’t really buy that and so you kind of get egg on your face when you have to explain we don’t really know how stars form in detail.  We don’t know how they evolve in detail.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">There are a lot of people who ask: “If you don’t know every single detail, you don’t know anything.”  So they don’t want to hear any of the story.  In one of those rare instances of putting all of our eggs in one basket, the astronomy community built “The Little Probe That Could”, the WMAP Cosmic Microwave Background Explorer.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">In general in astronomy we invest tons of money in instruments that serve multiple purposes.  Hubble Space Telescope was launched to help us identify in detail the expansion rate of the Universe.  The Large Synoptic Survey Telescope that’s getting built is being justified as something that’s going to find the asteroid that could possibly destroy the Earth and map out all the asteroids.  These are really multipurpose instruments.  They can solve lots of different scientific problems.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe had one mission.  That was to in great detail map out the little hot and cold wiggles in the color in the temperature of the cosmic microwave background.  The distribution in the sizes of those little changes in temperature helps us get at what exactly was the size of the Universe at the moment the cosmic microwave background was formed.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">By looking at those distributions in size, we’re able to start to figure out what is the geometry of the Universe.  What is the size at the moment that those parts were let loose?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’re able to by considering the density of mass in the Universe will look back time to that moment the radiation is released. We’re able to get an extremely accurate measurement of many of the cosmological parameters that describe how our Universe is expanding, how it’s evolving, how it’s changing and how it’s eventually going to die.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We were able to ask all these fundamental parameter problems using one wall of light – the cosmic microwave background; using one little probe – the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe.  That’s what gave us the final 13.7 plus or minus point 2(!) billion year old Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> In the listeners’ minds right now, they’re going to say and I’m asking:  How by looking at the variations in the temperature of the cosmic microwave background radiation do you know the Universe is 13.7 billion years old?  What is the method that tells you that?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the things that gets that is how quickly is the Universe evolving initially?  As the Universe was first formed it was very hot dense plasma.  It was nothing more than light and matter constantly in contact with one another constantly scattering. Electrons and protons were de-coupled.  Light couldn’t really get anywhere without hitting an electron or proton and being absorbed and re-emitted.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">It was basically a lot like a hotter denser version of what’s inside of a fluorescent light bulb.  Within this dense plasma waves were able to form.  We call these acoustical waves.  You see them in the Sun as well.  Any hot dense medium, in fact any medium that behaves in a lot of ways like a liquid.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Like boiling water on the stove.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Well, boiling water is actually different physics but you can set up oscillations.  Seismic waves propagating through the Earth is another type of acoustical wave.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Okay, I see now.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> The wave length of the acoustic waves was a function of the density and the size of the Universe.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> So they by measuring the temperature they could calculate that how dense and how big the Universe was at that point.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right, using the distribution of those acoustic waves.  There is a lot of really scary complicated math involved.  But it is math that we know how to do.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> I’ve got a pen.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I’m not going to do it right now, sorry.  The theorists have gone through and made this wonderful prediction of: these are the distributions of sizes of the hot and cold spots that we should see.  And the actual data – the error bars in the data are smaller than the typical line-width of the expected theoretical distribution.  It’s just amazingly dead-on data.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">One of the things that we get at with the geometry is: you expect the average size to be roughly a degree for one part of the distribution.  If it is smaller it tells you the Universe is one geometry because it’s like looking at something on a saddle – you see the angles of the triangle are less than 60 degrees on an equilateral triangle if it’s on a saddle.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">Whereas if you put that equilateral triangle on a circle instead, the angles on the corners of the triangle expand out greater than 60 degrees; but if it’s on a flat surface you have nice 60 degree corners.  We expect the sizes to vary with the geometry of the Universe.  Just by looking at the sizes we’re able to get at what is the geometry.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">By looking at the distribution we’re able to start learning properties about the density.  Lots of different things can be learned and we’ve put all the pieces together, plugged through all the math. Figuring out the density of the Universe is one of the coolest things that we’ve done in our lifetime in some ways.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> What impact did dark energy have on those calculations?  If you knew the size of the Universe at a certain point, and then you know the size of the Universe now, or you think you know the amount of expansion that’s happened then you calculated it back.  In 1998 the discovery of dark energy has kind of thrown that whole thing, right?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right and luckily WMAP came out <span style="text-decoration: underline;">after</span> dark energy.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> So we probably would have had an incorrect [Laughter] number if we hadn’t accounted for the additional acceleration coming from dark energy WMAP that math would have then been wrong.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>It wouldn’t have been as huge an error as you might worry because in the early moments of the Universe we were dominated by matter.  It’s only as we expand more and more and more that dark energy is starting to dominate how our Universe’s size is changing over time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So, yeah, it would have introduced error but it wouldn’t have been a devastating result.  Luckily we figured out dark energy first.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and then could account for that as well knowing what kind of a change you need in the velocity of the expansion and how that would have changed over time.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> And how that affects our densities and everything else.  It’s all the different cosmological parameters.  There’s a really good book – you’re the one who pointed it out to me – Six Basic Numbers?</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We’ll link to it in the show notes. There’s a really good book that we’re both blanking on because we’re face-to-face which…</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> We don’t have our internets. [Laughter]  No research!  No Wikipedia! Six Numbers – yeah.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> We’ll put a link to it in show notes.  It goes through and documents all these different numbers that help us understand the way our Universe is evolving.  It’s really kind of amazing to see how far we’ve come from 6,000 years based on a bunch of begats to order of 62 million years based on well we know how much salt is going into the ocean, we know how much salt is coming out of the ocean.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">We know the current salinity of the ocean so we come up with the 62 million years to well we’re not quite sure but certainly not a billion years based on what the Sun is burning to realize oh, nuclear burning. It’s good. Then we get on to radioisotope dating of the planet getting us to 4ish billion years to radioisotope dating for meteorites getting us out to 5ish billion years.  With aging of stars we have our stellar evolution models that can get us out to unfortunately15 billion years.  We’re still working on those.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> Stars are still older than the Universe.  We don’t worry about that.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>Yeah, we’re pretty sure we know where the problems are.  It’s called mass loss that’s an issue.  I use white dwarf cooling.  We use evolution models too.  Now we’re using the parameters that define the shape of space.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">The Universe has finally stopped getting older except for the rate at which it’s aging.  So, now we’re roughly 27 minutes older than we were when we began this show. [Laughter]</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser: </strong> It’s amazing that scientists can put such a definitive number down because it’s only been 4 years now I think that that number was known.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">So if we’d had this conversation 4 or 5 years ago we would had said it’s somewhere between 10 and 20 billion years old.  We don’t know exactly.  And now we can give you a very precise number.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> I do miss the days of: “children, use 100 it makes the math easier.”</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Now it is children, use 72.  I know it makes the math hard but suffer.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela: </strong>You still tend to use 70 a lot.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Fraser:</strong> Alright, thanks Pamela and as you said, we’re going to try and record some more episodes while were here but hopefully this one reflects that we’re in the same room together, seeing each other as we have the conversation.  I don’t know when we’re going to talk next.</p>
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;">
<p style="margin-left: 0.63in; text-indent: -0.63in; margin-bottom: 0in;"><strong>Pamela:</strong> Probably over dinner. [Laughter]</p>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-090106.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>We did a wildly popular three part series about the center, size and shape of the Universe. But every good trilogy needs a 4th episode. This week we look at age of the Universe. How old is the Universe, and how do we know?</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>We did a wildly popular three part series about the center, size and shape of the Universe. But every good trilogy needs a 4th episode. This week we look at age of the Universe. How old is the Universe, and how do we know? And how has this number changed over time as astronomers have gotten better tools and techniques?





Ep. 122: How Old is the Universe?
Jump to Shownotes
Jump to Transcript or Download (coming soon!)





Shownotes

 Astronomy Cast/Universe Today/Astroblogger Meetup
If you live near Long Beach or are there for the AAS meeting, meet Pamela, Fraser, and all the Astronomy Cast LIVE team at a &quot;Blogger Meet-up&quot; on Wed. January 7 at the Rock Bottom Brewery from  6pm - 9pm.


	How old is the Universe?  -- WMAP
	A &quot;history of the history&quot; of the Universe -- American Institute of Physics
	How old is the Universe?  --Superstring Theory.com
	Different &quot;religious&quot; beliefs about the Earth&#039;s age
	Other creation myths
	The Age of the Earth and the Formation of the Universe -- U of South Dakota
	Failed scientific attempts to determine the age of the Universe -- U of South Dakota

	Current scientific &quot;clocks&quot; to determine age of the Universe -- U of South Dakota
	Plate tectonics over time -- UC Berkeley
	What fuels the sun?
	How old is the solar system? -- Universe Today
	Dorrit Hoffleit -- Wiki
	Hertzsprung Russell Diagram -- Atlas of the Universe
	WMAP 
	Large Synoptic Survey Telescope
	One view of the initial conditions of the Universe -- Cosmilog
	Origin and Density of the Universe -- GSFS
	Book:  Just Six Numbers:  The  Deep Forces that Shape the Universe by Martin Rees




Transcript: How Old is the Universe?
Download the transcript





Fraser Cane: We are at the winter meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Long Beach, California.  We are busy blogging and reporting news. Pamela is working on the International Year of Astronomy and we have found a quiet moment to do an episode of AstronomyCast because we thought it would be very cool to do this while we’re in the same location.

We’re going to stay on topic and have a real show for you.  We did a popular three-part series about the center, size and shape of the Universe about a year ago, but every good trilogy needs a fourth episode. [Laughter]

This week we look at the age of the Universe.  How old is the Universe and how do we know?  And how has this number changed over time as astronomers have gotten better tools and techniques?  Actually, let’s have this conversation backwards.  How old do we know the Universe is right now?

Dr. Pamela Gay: Thirteen point 7 plus or minus .2 billion years.

Fraser:  Thirteen point 7 plus or minus .2 billion years, right.  Then how does that compare to the history of knowing how old the Universe is over time?

Pamela: One of the really cool things was except for the last few oscillations zooming in on the accurate number; the Universe just keeps getting older and older and older.

There’s the always what if it’s infinitely old?  We’re going to ignore infinity.  People who say less than infinity in general the age just keeps getting older and they seem to have finally settled on a nice old Universe to live with it.

Fraser: So how old then did people used to think the Universe was?

Pamela: It tended to settle out to a few thousand years based on a few thousand begats.

Fraser: Right then you would have written oral history in all cultures and as far back as people could remember as far back as people could describe their existence.  That was the Universe.

They all had a mythological creation myth that described their beginning.  I guess it all depends on the culture and what people would think was the beginning of the Universe.

Pamela: Everything from coming up out of the Earth to… Every society had its own way of getting the original humans on the planet from some sort of a holy beginning.  Then you just count generations.

</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
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		<item>
		<title>Ep. 87: The End of the Universe Part 2: The End of Everything</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/05/ep-87-the-end-of-the-universe-part-2-the-end-of-everything/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/05/ep-87-the-end-of-the-universe-part-2-the-end-of-everything/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 22:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Hopefully you've all recovered from part 1 of this set, where we make you sad about the future of the humanity, the Earth, the Sun and the Solar System. But hang on, we're really going to bring you down. Today we'll look far far forward into the distant future of the Universe, at timescales that we can barely comprehend.

<strong><a href ="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-080505.mp3">Episode 87: The End of the Universe Part 2: The End of Everything</a></strong><div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/05/ep-87-the-end-of-the-universe-part-2-the-end-of-everything/' addthis:title='Ep. 87: The End of the Universe Part 2: The End of Everything '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully you&#8217;ve all recovered from part 1 of this set, where we make you sad about the future of the humanity, the Earth, the Sun and the Solar System. But hang on, we&#8217;re really going to bring you down. Today we&#8217;ll look far far forward into the distant future of the Universe, at timescales that we can barely comprehend.</p>
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<li><strong><a href ="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-080505.mp3">Episode 87: The End of the Universe Part 2: The End of Everything</a></strong></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
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<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.astr.ua.edu/gifimages/lmc_smc.html">The Magellanic Clouds</a> from Bill Keel</li>
<li><a href="http://www.galaxydynamics.org/tflops.html">Merging of the Milky Way and Andromeda Galaxies</a> from Galaxy Dynamics, byJohn Dubinski, U of Toronto</li>
<li><a href="http://seds.org/messier/more/local.html">The Local Group of Galaxies</a> from SEDS</li>
<li><a href="http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-07/ns-abh071906.php">&#8220;Are Black Holes at the Center of Galaxies?&#8221; </a>from EurekAlert</li>
<li><a href="http://physics-animations.com/Physics/English/bh_txt.htm">The Merging of Black Holes</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/astronomy/episode-28-what-is-the-universe-expanding-into/">Astronomy Cast Episode 23 discusses the expanding universe</a></li>
<li><a href="http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=525">Understanding the Expanding Universe </a>from Cornell University</li>
<li><a href="http://www.exploratorium.edu/origins/hubble/tools/doppler.html">Redshift and the Expanding Universe</a> from Exploratorium</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2007/05/22/the-universe-will-appear-static-in-3-trillion-years/">Our Lonely Future 3 Trillion Years From Now</a> Universe Today article</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2007/07/25/the-end-of-everything/">The End of Everything </a>Universe Today article</li>
<li><a href="http://www.as.utexas.edu/hetdex/">Measuring Dark Energy by studying how galaxies are moving away from us </a>-The HETDEX project</li>
<li><a href="http://universe.nasa.gov/program/probes/jdem.html">The &#8220;Beyond Einstein&#8221; program to study dark energy</a></li>
<li><a href="http://spiff.rit.edu/classes/phys240/lectures/future/future.html">The Future of the Universe</a> by Michael Richmond</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_universe">The Accelerating Universe</a> from Wikipedia</li>
<li><a href="http://www.einstein-online.info/en/elementary/quantum/evaporating_bh/index.html">Evaporating Black Holes </a>from Einstein Online</li>
<li><a href="http://www.fpx.de/fp/Fun/Googolplex/">Googolplex</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/boseeinstein.html">Bose Einstein Condensates</a> from Jupiter Scientific</li>
<li><a href="http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/01/26/the-future-of-the-universe/">The Future of the Universe </a>from Cosmic Variance</li>
<li><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0302506">Abstract:Â  Phantom Energy and Cosmic Doomsday</a> (The Big Rip)</li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: The End of the Universe Part 2: The End of Everything</h3>
<div id="transcript">
<p><strong>Fraser Cain:</strong> I&#8217;m not so sad after last week&#8217;s show.  Which actually we recorded an hour ago because you&#8217;re traveling again we&#8217;re doing both shows, one after another.  Take your medicine at the same time and kinda just get through it. [Laughter]</p>
<p>So, some of you might have noticed that we have a new outro to the show and a new editor for the show.  Well, why don&#8217;t you talk about this Pamela?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We hired a new student, Preston Gibson, a mass communications major here at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville.  He&#8217;s doing what he is trained to do best.  Rebecca is going off to do the things she&#8217;s trained to do best which is to work in Science and Engineering.  She&#8217;s going off to do great new things and we brought someone new in to hopefully help our show do great new things as well.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> There you go.  Welcome aboard Preston. You will hear him at the end of the show. And good luck to Rebecca.</p>
<p>Hopefully, you&#8217;ve all recovered from part one of this set where we make you really sad about the future of humanity, the Earth, the Sun, the Solar System.  But hang on we&#8217;re really going to bring you down. Today we&#8217;re going to look far forward into the distant future of the Universe at time scales that we can barely comprehend.</p>
<p>When last we left our heroes [Laughter] the Sun had turned into a white dwarf and was slowly cooling down.  Maybe there were planets huddled around it.  And it would cool down for the next trillion years or so and turn into a black dwarf.  But now we kinda need to rewind because things will happen to our neighborhood after the Sun dies and turns into a white dwarf.  What is the next major phase that happens?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> The Universe and its destruction is a long and violent process.  So, perhaps the next thing that we look to as a major mile marker is the end of the Milky Way Galaxy.</p>
<p>We live in this nice happy little, fairly we think pretty looking spiral galaxy with a bar in its center.  We have the Magellanic Clouds off to the side helping influence the shape of our system.  But we&#8217;re not always going to be this pretty little galaxy.  In fact we&#8217;re on a collision course gravitationally with Andromeda galaxy.  Our Milky Way is what we call a part of a local group; which is a group of gravitationally bound together objects that we&#8217;re going to be talking about a fair amount in this particular episode.</p>
<p>Over time gravity is going to cause us to interact with pretty much everything in the local group.  Us (The Milky Way), and Andromeda are going to collide, probably light up our central super mass of black holes and send huge amounts of energy off into the Universe.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> When Astronomers look out into the Universe everywhere they look, galaxies are moving quickly away from us.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Except for the local group.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Except for one; [Laughter] except for the local group. And specifically Andromeda is bearing down on us, right?  Or we&#8217;re bearing down on it.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> When will we actually encounter Andromeda and what will that look like?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> It&#8217;s going to happen probably in about 3 to 5 billion years.  It depends on who you&#8217;re looking at, their papers.  There&#8217;s always a little bit of argument on when things are going to happen.  Our Sun will still not be done being done; our planet will probably be toast as we talked about last episode.  But our galaxy will start to collide with Andromeda while our Sun is still going through its normal happy little main sequence life span.</p>
<p>So our Solar System will be around to watch the black hole in the center of the Milky Way lighting up.  To watch our sky radically change as Andromeda gets bigger and bigger and bigger and fills the sky and then collides with the sky rather violently.  It&#8217;s not that far in the future.  It&#8217;s just kinda cool to think about.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> It&#8217;s not going to happen over night.  The two galaxies will pass through each other and then move away and then come back together and do that a bunch of times until they merge.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We&#8217;re actually going to go through a phase where we look a lot like the Mice Galaxies, the two little colliding galaxies that everyone has seen Hubble pictures of a million times. It&#8217;s going to be a very pretty event for people sitting in other parts of the Universe.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s really the next big thing we have to look forward to is the destruction of the Milky Way Galaxy and all galaxy life as we know it, or at least changing.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Whence that process is done, I think I read some of that research as well that it will take 3 to 5 billion years to begin, but it won&#8217;t be done for several billion years after that.<br />
It&#8217;s sort of like thrashing the two galaxies [Laughter] are thrashing around each other until finally it&#8217;s just a ball of stars.  We&#8217;re just going to turn into an irregularâ€¦.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We&#8217;re just going to be another elliptical galaxy in the Universe.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and these are some of the largest galaxies out there which have gone through many galaxy collisions and consumed a lot of stars.  They&#8217;re mostly populated with the older stars, right?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> A lot of the dust and gas that would otherwise go into forming new stars gets knocked out of the galaxy in the process.  Or it gets churned into a final magnificent burst of star formation.  About the time that our Sun is ending it&#8217;s main sequence life, our galaxy and Andromeda are probably going to be starting to end their final dance andâ€¦</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> What will happen to the black holes?  I know there are super massive black holes at the middle of both galaxies?  Will they come together?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Very slowly.  Actually, when we look out at other spiral galaxies that are in the process of merging together to form elliptical galaxies, we actually see two black holes embedded in the cores of these very dramatic systems.  We believe that over time these smaller black holes will merge together to form larger and larger black holes.</p>
<p>Actually as we look out around the Universe one of the things we notice is the size of the super massive black holes in the center of galaxies is directly related to the dynamics of the spheroid of stars surrounding that super massive black hole. The larger that spheroid of stars the larger the super massive black hole, and in order to build that black hole you have to have in these collisions the black holes merging.  That&#8217;s going to give off a huge amount of energy when that happens.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay, so the Galaxies have come together and eventually the super massive black holes have merged, what&#8217;s next?  I guess we&#8217;re going to run into other galaxies?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Over time the entire local group, us, the Magellanic Clouds, Andromeda, the other smaller galaxies that hang out amongst us will all merge into a bigger and bigger system until eventually we&#8217;re basically one giant island galaxy.  It&#8217;s going to actually look like an island galaxy to us as well.  The next perhaps big mile-marker is when pretty much the rest of the Universe disappears.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> The, what? What?  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> That&#8217;s what it&#8217;s always just fun to say.  So our Universeâ€¦.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> The Universe is going to disappear?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Our Universe is expanding and we can only see so far.  As objects get red-shifted further away from us, their light is changed in color and the energy gets stretched out.  Eventually as our Universe expands it will get to the point where the next closest object we can&#8217;t see anymore.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, I think we talked about this a bit.  About how big the Universe is that the objects that are really, really far away will be moving away from us so quickly that they appear to be moving faster than the speed of light, or they are traveling further away from us at faster than the speed of light.</p>
<p>Those galaxies, as you said, will just fade away.  The photons they are emitting will never reach us and so whatever photons are left we&#8217;ll see and then the galaxy will fade away.  Then I guess you can imagine a sphere around whatever we&#8217;re going to call this new galaxy closing inward of things that can no longer be seen with the Universe accelerating apart.  Eventually, there is just us.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> So the nearest other galaxy clusters, the nearest other galaxy groups are going to fade to red and red and red and further red and then fade away completely.  So over the course of billions of tens of billions of years, we&#8217;re going to watch the Universe fade to nothing.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, I&#8217;ve done several articles on this one that Lawrence Krauss did a recent paper where they predicted that there would be a time when future cosmologists would have no way of knowing anything outside of our galaxy.  So, there would be no concept of cosmology to understand that we are in an expanding Universe that began with a Big Bang because all of the evidence that we have today comes from the fact that we see the cosmic background radiation.  That will disappear.</p>
<p>We see galaxies moving away from us and that will no longer happen.  I think he said even the abundance of hydrogen and helium stars will have gone through so many generations and mixed everything up that astronomers won&#8217;t even be able to figure that out anymore.  So they will think they live in an eternal and unchanging Universe.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> What&#8217;s even worse than that, they&#8217;re going to think that they live in a Universe that is gravitationally bound and at some point is going to crunch in on itself.  It actually is going to return future cosmologists if they lose the history of the observations we&#8217;re making today, which over a hundred billion years, you have to kind of think we&#8217;re going to lose data.</p>
<p>Back in the 1900s, like year 1900, we thought that our Universe was only what we could see. Only the galaxy, the stars, the Milky Way and Andromeda was a nebula or something out there.  There is this fear of what if everything is gravitationally bound in such a way that it eventually collapses back in on itself.  All observational evidence is going to point in the far distant future to that also being the case of we live in the island of stars.  On the distance scales that they&#8217;ll be stuck to observe, they&#8217;ll have no knowledge of dark energy.</p>
<p>You have to be able to see other galaxies expanding away from you in order to measure dark energy so we won&#8217;t be able to measure that anymore.  Their understanding is going to be limited by being stuck in this small mundane island of what used to be a bunch of galaxies and not being able to see everything out past the event horizon; everything out past the observable horizon.  It&#8217;s sad to think that we&#8217;re going to lose knowledge as we lose sight of the Universe.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> It&#8217;s quite amazing to think about the fact that we live at a really fortunate time.  You think, oh, it&#8217;s great to live when I do and where I do, but to know that in all of possible time we happen to be at a point where cosmology is even possible.  To get a pretty true sense of what the Universe is doing.  That will be lost to way future generations.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And that&#8217;s just kind of sad.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yeah, well, we think we&#8217;ve told people this would be the sad episode.  It gets worse. [Laughter] So, at least you know what&#8217;s outside our galaxy?  I don&#8217;t know.  What&#8217;s going to be the future for the stars in the future galaxy and all of the stars in the Universe?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Over time they will run out of the ability to burn stuff.  The planet Earth actually has the same problem at a certain level.  Someday, we&#8217;re going to run out of fuel.  The Universe is someday also going to run out of reasonably accessible fuel.</p>
<p>Stars start burning by having hydrogen fuse in their core; then having helium fuse next.  You can&#8217;t start off with a lump of carbon and get it burning, at least not easily.  Eventually, we will have burned up all the nebulas.  We will have burned up all the dust clouds.  Everything that could easily be turned into a star and burned up is going to be burned up.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s left over is going to be in the form of white dwarfs.  Is going to be in the form of if you take a red dwarf star it just sort of burns out and turns into charcoal.  It&#8217;s going to be left over in the form of neutron stars and black holes.  We&#8217;re going to have a bunch of stellar embers.  In about a hundred trillion years there won&#8217;t be any stars that are actively burning the fusion processes things into higher elements.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So in about what, a hundred trillion years?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> In about a hundred trillion years.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> In about a hundred trillion years there will no longer be stars.  At that point I guess the Universe would be pretty dark.  And I can imagine you would start out with no more super novae because you just can&#8217;t get big stars anymore.  There&#8217;s not enough concentration of material and then you no longer have stars big enough to turn into neutron stars or even main sequence stars.</p>
<p>You just have now every now &amp; then a pocket of gas can collapse and you get a red dwarf or a brown dwarf.  Eventually there&#8217;s not even enough material for red dwarfs and then you&#8217;re just waiting for all of the main sequence stars to turn into white dwarfs.  You&#8217;re waiting for the white dwarfs to turn into black dwarfs.  Then you&#8217;re waiting for all the red dwarf stars to turn into black dwarfs.  Then all the brown dwarfs to turn into black dwarfs. [Laughter]</p>
<p>Then you have a Universe filled with black holes, neutron stars and black dwarfs, right?  And planets I guess whatever there was left orbiting all of this dead material.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> One of the questions left for people who work on dynamics is will eventually everything fall into a black hole?</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> That was going to be my next question.  You can imagine that over a hundred trillion years the chances of three body interactions or stuff just decaying, or things colliding and falling into the path of a black hole.  I wonder what the chances are.  Space is big.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Space is big. I&#8217;d like to say that there will always be some rogue planet shooting out between the black holes.  There will always be some rogue white dwarf that turns into a black dwarf as it cools off.  There will always be some rogue star shooting off between the black holes.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Last episode, we were hopeful for moving the Earth.  [Laughter] We were hopeful for finding some way to sneak a planet around a white dwarf star and huddle up to the embers as it dies out.  Now all we&#8217;re hoping for is that some black dwarf doesn&#8217;t get consumed by a black hole.  That&#8217;s it.  That&#8217;s the best we could hope for.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, it is kinda sad where the expectation bar has been set in this episode.  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> It gets worse. [Laughter] It&#8217;s funny.  Let&#8217;s hope that some chunk of degenerate matter doesn&#8217;t get gobbled up by a black hole.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Right, but there are people out there working on this who say that in 1030 years, that&#8217;s a one followed by thirty zeros years pretty much everything will have fallen into a black hole.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So you would get these momentary flashes, right?  You get darkness everywhere you looked and then every now and then, something would fall into a black hole.  The black hole would flare up and you would get like a mini-quasar for a little while there and then nothing.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, and then nothing.  And then in about 1030 years, even those flashes will stop.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, there will be nothing left.  Everything will be gobbled up.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Except for that little hopeful planet that I leave that is shooting off between all the black holes.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yeah, that one where all our hopes and dreams are resting on, shooting off to a terrible future.  [Laughter] Let&#8217;s imagine we&#8217;ve looked at the Milky Way or a future version of the Milky Way.  You&#8217;d have the super massive black hole, would it be orbited by other black holes?  Or would they all have just fallen into the super massive black hole?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is one of the questions for people who work on dynamics.  If we have enough collisions going on, it could all end up being one giant black hole.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> See, once again rooting for many black holes.  [Laughter] But we&#8217;re probably going to end up with one.  So wherever there was a galaxy, now you have one super massive black hole.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> But there&#8217;s always the probability that you&#8217;ll end up with just the right alignments of orbits and you&#8217;ll end up with a bunch of smaller black holes orbiting the big black holes.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, our plucky black hole, escaping doom, [Laughter] heading off into the Universe to seek a terrible future.  Alright, what&#8217;s next?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Once you reach the stage where everything except for this one little planet they&#8217;re all rooting forâ€¦..</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> I guess we also have to mention that dark energy has been accelerating the expansion of the Universe for one hundred trillion years.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, so there&#8217;s nothing that you can see outside of our galaxy. [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> There&#8217;s nothing.  To say that things are far apart is an understatement.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Basically, the Universe is expanding faster than something can go.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right.  So there&#8217;s no way that anything can reach anything else.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s just not going to happen.  It&#8217;s that whole the graph paper is expanding faster than you can draw.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay, so then we&#8217;ve got our black holesâ€¦.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Now the problem with black holes is they evaporate given enough time.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> And we&#8217;ll give them time.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And we&#8217;re going to give them a lot of time.  At a certain level once you have a big black hole the cosmic microwave background is filling it with energy faster than it is evaporating.  In about a hundred billion years, even the cosmic microwave background is going to be red-shifted to the point that it is fairly meaningless.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s going to end up with a wave length of about one meter and that&#8217;s a frequency of about 300 megahertz.  The amount of energy it is carrying is going to be twelve orders of magnitude less than what we currently experience.  So its ability to keep those black holes going will be vastly diminished.  It is just going to keep getting worse.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So right now the only thing that will be keeping these super massive black holes their current size is this trickle of radiation coming from the cosmic microwave background radiation, I guess errant photons that somehow make it.  The occasional particles of interstellar dust that fall into it keep the black hole instability.  I guess eventually there will be a point where not even that material is reaching the black hole and it starts to decay.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah and so these black holes are evaporating.  The small ones go first.  They sort of pop off into nothingness.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So, our plucky black hole that thought it had escaped destruction is the first to die because it is smaller, doesn&#8217;t have the mass and so it will evaporate.  We did a question show on how black holes evaporate so we won&#8217;t go into that in this episode.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Even the big ones are not going to last forever.  Here&#8217;s where you take your google number. It&#8217;s a number it&#8217;s a one followed by a hundred zeros.  You take your one followed by a hundred zeros, place the unit years after it and that&#8217;s when even the black holes have evaporated.  Our Universe is basically nothing more than these low energy photons forming background radiation.  Everything is cool, coldâ€¦â€¦</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> I can imagine these particles coming off of black holes one at a time getting swept up in dark energy and being accelerated away from the black hole, right?  Because they&#8217;ve been able to escape from the black hole they&#8217;re not necessarily gravitationally bound to it anymore.  So they&#8217;re just going to start escaping awayâ€¦.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> It&#8217;s not so much that they&#8217;re escaping away as they&#8217;re getting stretched out.   So, as this photon tries to fly across the Universe, the Universe is expanding and what might have started off as a high energy blue photon is going to become red.  Then become infrared, become radio, and no useful amount of energy at all.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, a state of energy, a wavelength that could be measured in light years.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We&#8217;re looking at a Universe where someday in the future, basically everything sits as close to absolute zero as atoms can get.  Imagine the entire Universe basically becoming a Bose-Einstein condensate.</p>
<p>What a cold, scary place to be.  The thing is, all energy, all mass, is going to be conserved.  The amount of mass and energy our Universe started with is still there but the volume it is spread out over is basically all this wonderful stuff that makes you, me our desk, our table, our planet, is going to be spread out so much that it&#8217;s as though were the deepest vacuum you could ever imagine.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> And what then?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Then it&#8217;s essentially over. It&#8217;s energy death.  The Universe just hangs out being cold.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> But, it&#8217;s not hanging out.  It&#8217;s accelerating.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, yeah, it&#8217;s accelerating itself apart but there&#8217;s nothing there.  So, it&#8217;s a very sad, cold place to think about.  Then there&#8217;s always the question of what if our Universe shreds itself apart and shreds itself into other dimensions?</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s where we start getting completely out of all observational, conceptional ideas and into the land of scary math.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> That is the same thing as people hoping that we can huddle up next to that white dwarf.  That we can prevent the Earth being consumed by the Sun as it turns into a red giant.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s this hope against all hope that there is a way to avoid the final heat death of the Universe.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is why we read Sci-Fi.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> [Laughter] We should all read science fiction and you have some future astrophysicist come up with a portal to another dimension and head off to that other dimension.</p>
<p>This too would probably also end up in a heat death. [Laughter]  I think a lot of this thinking of what if there are multiple big bangs.  What if they happen regularly?  A lot of this is driven by the awful conclusion that this is the future that our Universe faces.</p>
<p>That far, far, far down in the future beyond our lives, the Universe is a rapidly expanding place of nothing.  All that came before is gone.  And that&#8217;s too bad.  That&#8217;s really sad.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We don&#8217;t want to be erased.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> We don&#8217;t want to be erased and that&#8217;s how to think what it means.  That&#8217;s why even putting our hopes and dreams into that black dwarf floating away is a way to say we were there.  That was us.  That&#8217;s all we have for this week.</p>
</div>
<p><em></em></p>
<p><em>This transcript is not an exact match to the audio file.  It has been edited for clarity.  Transcription and editing by Cindy Leonard.</em></div>
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			<itunes:subtitle>Hopefully you&#039;ve all recovered from part 1 of this set, where we make you sad about the future of the humanity, the Earth, the Sun and the Solar System. But hang on, we&#039;re really going to bring you down. Today we&#039;ll look far far forward into the distan...</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>Hopefully you&#039;ve all recovered from part 1 of this set, where we make you sad about the future of the humanity, the Earth, the Sun and the Solar System. But hang on, we&#039;re really going to bring you down. Today we&#039;ll look far far forward into the distant future of the Universe, at timescales that we can barely comprehend.

Episode 87: The End of the Universe Part 2: The End of Everything</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
	</item>
		<item>
		<title>Ep. 86: The End of the Universe Part 1: The End of the Solar System</title>
		<link>http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/04/ep-86-the-end-of-the-universe-part-1-the-end-of-the-solar-system/</link>
		<comments>http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/04/ep-86-the-end-of-the-universe-part-1-the-end-of-the-solar-system/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Cosmology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Our Solar System]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[This is a show we wanted to do since we started Astronomy Cast but we always thought it was too early. We wanted you to know that we're positive, happy people with enthusiasm for astronomy and the future. It's time for some sadness. It's time for a grim look to see what the future holds for the Universe. This week we stay close to home and consider the end of humanity, the Earth, the Sun, and the entire Solar System. Next week we'll extend out to the very end of the Universe.

<strong><a href ="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-080428.mp3">Episode 86: The End of the Universe Part 1: The End of the Solar System</a></strong><div class="addthis_toolbox addthis_default_style " addthis:url='http://www.astronomycast.com/2008/04/ep-86-the-end-of-the-universe-part-1-the-end-of-the-solar-system/' addthis:title='Ep. 86: The End of the Universe Part 1: The End of the Solar System '  ><a class="addthis_button_facebook_like" fb:like:layout="button_count"></a><a class="addthis_button_tweet"></a><a class="addthis_button_google_plusone" g:plusone:size="medium"></a><a class="addthis_counter addthis_pill_style"></a></div>]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a show we wanted to do since we started Astronomy Cast but we always thought it was too early. We wanted you to know that we&#8217;re positive, happy people with enthusiasm for astronomy and the future. It&#8217;s time for some sadness. It&#8217;s time for a grim look to see what the future holds for the Universe. This week we stay close to home and consider the end of humanity, the Earth, the Sun, and the entire Solar System. Next week we&#8217;ll extend out to the very end of the Universe.</p>
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<li><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-080428.mp3">Episode 86: The End of the Universe Part 1: The End of the Solar System</a></strong></li>
<li><a href="#shownotes">Jump to Shownotes</a></li>
<li><a href="#transcript">Jump to Transcript</a> or Download (coming soon!)</li>
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</tr>
</table>
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<div id="shownotes">
<h3><a name="shownotes">Shownotes</a></h3>
<p>Show Notes:</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2007/07/25/the-end-of-everything/">The End of Everything</a> &#8212; Universe Today (the start of it all!)</li>
<li><strong>Global warming caused by the sun? Yes, say these websites:</strong></li>
<li><a href="http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/10/12/global_warming_caused_by_man_made_activi">People&#8217;s Voice</a></li>
<li><a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html">National Geographic</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.global-warming-and-the-climate.com/">Global Warming and the Climate</a></li>
<li><strong>Global warming caused by the sun?  No, say these websites:</strong></li>
<li><a href="http://robertkyriakides.wordpress.com/2008/04/06/global-warming-is-not-caused-by-changes-in-the-suns-activity-cosmic-ray-theory-no-longer-viable/">Robert Kyraikides</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/03/there-is-no-sun-link-with-global-warming/">Universe Today</a></li>
<li>Measuring the<strong> </strong>temperatures of the sun: <a href="http://www.ciese.org/curriculum/tempproj3/en/">Global Sun Temperature Project</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.milky-way.com/gb/sevol.htm">The evolution of stars</a> &#8212; Milky Way.com</li>
<li><a href="http://wvlc.uwaterloo.ca/biology447/modules/module6/Scientific_American_Article_Microbes.htm">Microbes Deep Inside the Earth </a>&#8211; Scientific American (via Waterloo U)</li>
<li><a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5527426">Bacteria Outnumber Cells in Human Body </a>&#8211;NPR</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/22/how-long-will-life-survive-on-earth/">How Long Will Life Exist on Earth? </a> &#8211;Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/death_of_earth_000224.html">Freeze or Fry:  How Long Has the Earth Got? </a> &#8211;Space.com</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/stars.html">The Sun&#8217;s Main Sequence Life </a>&#8211; Imagine the Universe</li>
<li><a href="http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q2958.html">Red Giant Star </a>&#8211; Astronomy Cafe</li>
<li><a href="http://www.universetoday.com/2008/01/31/will-earth-survive-when-the-sun-becomes-a-red-giant/">Will the Earth Survive when the Sun Becomes a Red Giant?</a> &#8211;Universe Today</li>
<li><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizontal_branch">Horizontal Branch Stars </a>&#8211; Wiki</li>
<li><a href="http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/A/AGB.html">Asymptotic Giant Branch Stars </a>&#8211; Internet Encyclopedia of Science</li>
<li><a href="http://starryskies.com/articles/2008/05/sun-shine.html">How Long Will the Sun Shine? </a>&#8211; StarrySkies.com</li>
<li><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061104090409.htm">Giant Space Sunshade</a> &#8212; Science Daily</li>
<li><a href="http://www.seds.org/messier/planetar.html">Planetary Nebula </a>&#8211; SEDS</li>
<li><a href="http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/dwarfs.html">White Dwarf </a>&#8211; Imagine the Universe</li>
<li><a href="http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/B/blackdwarf.html">Black Dwarf </a>&#8211; Internet Encyclopedia of Science</li>
<li><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/08/17/white.dwarf.reut/index.html">White Dwarf Shows Signs of Earth-like Planets</a> &#8212; CNN</li>
</ul>
<h3>Transcript: The End of the Universe Part 1: The End of the Solar System</h3>
<div id="transcript">
<p><strong><a href="http://www.astronomycast.com/transcripts/AstroCast-080512_transcript.pdf">Download the transcript</a></strong></p>
<p><strong>Fraser Cain: </strong> This is going to be a sad one.</p>
<p><strong>Dr. Pamela Gay: </strong> It is.  But isn&#8217;t Astronomy all about death and destruction?</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> I guess it is.  This is a show that we&#8217;ve wanted to do since we started Astronomy Cast.  But we always thought it was a little too early.</p>
<p>I think we wanted all the listeners to know that we&#8217;re very positive, happy, well-adjusted people with families that we love and love us.  We have a great enthusiasm for Astronomy and the future.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> But now that it is spring and life is abounding everywhere [Laughter] we decided to discuss that. [the end of the Solar System].</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Exactly, the inevitable long-term destruction of everything that we all love forever.  So, time to take a grim look at what the future holds for the Universe.  This week we&#8217;re going to stay home and consider the end of humanity, the Earth, the Sun and entire Solar System.  Then next week we&#8217;ll extend out to the very end of the Universe and blow your mind.</p>
<p>If anyone wants a sneak peek, this is actually based on an article I did at Universe Today called â€œThe End of Everythingâ€. It is so fascinating that we wanted to go into it in great depth.  So Pamela, let&#8217;s start talking about the end from the beginning. [Laughter]  Let&#8217;s start with the end of humanity.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> So the end of humanity you can look at as coming from a number of different things.  There&#8217;s always the â€œwell we could blow each other up tomorrow just because we can, we have the technology to do that.â€</p>
<p>But hopefully the world political systems are a bit more stable than that.  Then there&#8217;s always the idea of releasing a super disease to wipe out all of humanity next year.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Asteroid?  We could be hit by an asteroid.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We could get hit by an asteroid.  There are all sorts of different wonderful ways we could die.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So the end of humanity could happen in a blink.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> In a blink.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Who&#8217;s to say what is gong to happen.  There&#8217;s no probability, this is the future. I think we can all imagine a bunch of awful ways that we could instantaneously or within a few hundred years, end humanity as we know it.  So, we&#8217;re not going to deal with that.   Letâ€˜s talk about more of the inevitable stuff.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, statistically we try to put predictions on how long can a species last.  One of the things we do, just because we can, is start from the basic statistical premise:  â€œLet&#8217;s assume half of all the human beings who will ever exist have already existed.â€  Assume we&#8217;re mid-way through our society&#8217;s life span on this planet.  Then project forward saying that half have already existed, we know how many are to come.  We know how fast we&#8217;re reproducing (roughly). And that gives us about ten thousand more years on the planet Earth.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Okay, so we&#8217;ve had a million years so far to get to where we are and then another 10,000 and thenâ€¦..</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And then we&#8217;re gone.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> That doesn&#8217;t seem very feasible to me because population rates aren&#8217;t going to necessarily increase forever and if we could find some sustainable level then we could last a lot longer.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And it is a purely statistical argument.  The truth is we don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to destroy us.  We don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s going to kill us.</p>
<p>So, it could be that we&#8217;re here up until the point that the planet can no longer sustain large life at all.  That gets us a little bit more time.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, and I think the other possibility is that we can always evolve or even technologically change ourselves into something else.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We can always jump this Solar System and find someplace better to live.  We&#8217;re just not there yet.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right.  When will the Earth stop being a nice place to live and why?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, our Sun, right now we don&#8217;t notice it so much.  In fact anyone who tries to say that global warming is caused by the Sun is not so much in line with what scientists are saying.  But long term, our Sun is going to heat up.  It is going to increase its energy output.  It is going to make our planet warm up.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re also going to run out of the ability to effectively cycle carbon in and out of our atmosphere.  So, with the breakdown of the carbon cycle and with our slowly heating Sun, in a billion years, water on our planet is toast and really we can&#8217;t live on the planet.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Why is the sun heating up?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> It&#8217;s part of its evolution.  As it changes what it is burning, how it is burning in its&#8217; core, it will get a little bit hotter, a little bit hotter, until it runs out of fuel in its&#8217; core.  Stars on the main sequence don&#8217;t just sit there and say: â€œI&#8217;m going to burn hydrogen in my core, the exact same temperature for the next 10 billion years.â€  But rather they go from: â€œI&#8217;m going to start burning hydrogen.â€ And they flare up and they do erratic things and eventually settle on to the main sequence.</p>
<p>While sitting on the main sequence, they slowly get a little bit warmer and a little bit warmer.  It is just part of the natural evolution of running through the fuel in the core.  As the chemical properties in the core change, as you build up more helium as just the mix of elements changes, the Sun is going to run a little bit hot.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So where we stand right now is just a snapshot of the Sun&#8217;s temperature.  It just happens to be that right now the temperature of the Sun is very comfortable.  But in like 500 million years, the Sun will have gotten so hot to the point that the whole Earth will just pretty much be a desert.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> You can imagine the habitable zone around the Sun which we were right smack dab in the middle is pushing outward with the Earth no longer in the middle and starting to kind of be on the inside of that habitable zone.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> This isn&#8217;t to say that Mars is going to become a better place to live because while the temperature situation on Mars is going to be a little bit better, Mars still doesn&#8217;t have an atmosphere.  So, it&#8217;s not that we can go there and be safe either.  Mars not only doesn&#8217;t have an atmosphere, but doesn&#8217;t have a magnetosphere.  So, even if we do jump ship and go to Mars, we still have problems with radiation to contend with.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> You said that the oceans would be toast, what is that process?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> As you warm up the planet, just increasing the temperature of the planet 50 degrees Celsius you start running into massive evaporation.  Once you get too much water vapor in the atmosphere, then you start a runaway greenhouse effect and eventually, our oceans evaporate into the atmosphere and just between normal collisions between particles you will start losing some of the lighter elements away from our atmosphere.  It&#8217;s sort of like every time you lose a helium balloon, that&#8217;s helium that is no longer a part of our planet.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re eventually going to run out of helium and other lighter elements are going to go away.  So, you evaporate the water and if it breaks into H2 and O in the atmosphere, those H&#8217;s are going to go away and you lose the ability to make water.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> And that&#8217;s what&#8217;s happened to Venus.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> That&#8217;s what happened to Venus.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right.  So that&#8217;s the future.  Now that is global warming.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> That&#8217;s definitely global warming.  That&#8217;s the type of global warming we can&#8217;t survive.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yes.  You look at a desert and you can see that no large creatures can really enjoy themselves.  Things have to hide underground.  Life doesn&#8217;t flourish in the same way it does in a tropical rainforest or in the ocean.  So then what does the future hold for life?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Eventually it will start moving progressively more and more toward the poles.  We will end up with today&#8217;s prairie creatures, today&#8217;s desert creatures eventually huddling around the North and South Poles.  I don&#8217;t know what they&#8217;re going to be huddling on with the North Pole because there is no land there.</p>
<p>Probably most of them will be combined to whatever can get itself to Antarctica somehow.  Eventually even there they will run out of resources to keep themselves alive.  Our planet will become a dead desert world.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> So, is that it?  There will be no life on Earth whatsoever?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> No intelligent life, no large life.  Who knows what bugs will exist in the bottoms of coal mines someday.  Who knows what will manage to find ways to survive underground.  But large life doesn&#8217;t exist well seven miles under the surface of the planet.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> No, but small life does.  I&#8217;ve heard estimates that there&#8217;s more microbial life under the surface of the Earth than there is on top of it.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And this is where you make the distinction between large life and microbes.  Microbes could be just about anywhere.  I&#8217;ve heard some microbiologists say there are more microbes on or in your body than human cells on and in your body.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, you&#8217;re really just a colony of microbes.  You&#8217;re not a person.  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Something like that.  We&#8217;re a walking island for bacteria.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> A robot, an island, yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> But, where are the elephants going to go?  Where are the wolves going to go?  Where are the bats going to go?  I&#8217;m sure there might be mice living underground, but I can&#8217;t imagine, and most of the research papers I looked at, just don&#8217;t see a future for large multi-celled individuals in the future.  Our planet just won&#8217;t have the resources to support them.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> I think it&#8217;s funny because people say:  â€œOh, 7.5 billion years from now, the sun is going to turn into a red giant.â€  And we&#8217;ll get to that in a second.  That&#8217;s how long we have.  But the reality is that we only have about 500 million years.  That I think for people feels very different.  They&#8217;ll both be comprehensively large amounts of time.</p>
<p>When you look back at how long Earth has been here, say for say 4.5 billion years you say that large life really only has another 500 million years.  That seems very shocking and very extra sad.  You think you have lots of time, but there isn&#8217;t lots of time.  Maybe only one shot at large life.  This is it.  Here we are.  This is our chance to make large, multi-cellular organisms happen.  And then 500 million years from now, that&#8217;s that.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Part of what makes it so sad is as we look back over our own archaeological record, we can see here&#8217;s where the first man was found.  Here&#8217;s where the first plant was found; here&#8217;s where the first multi-cellular object was found.  You can only go back so far.  But that distance that you can go back does incorporate millions of years.  It doesn&#8217;t incorporate billions of years for the multi-cellular things.</p>
<p>Microbes first appeared about 3.5 billion years ago.  However, you can go back 500 million years and find a fossil record.  When you say:  â€œAh, life has 7.5 billion years to go!â€  Well, that&#8217;s longer than the Earth has been around.  That says we haven&#8217;t reached the halfway point yet.  We&#8217;re not middle-aged yet as a planet with life.</p>
<p>When we say 500 million that means that we&#8217;re past the halfway point.  That means that we should be getting the black balloons at our planet&#8217;s birthday party and signing up for planetary Medicare and Medicaid. [Laughter]  Once you pass the halfway mark there&#8217;s something bittersweet.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Now, the Sun though is continuing to get hotter and hotter.  So, what does the future hold then for the Sun?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Our Sun&#8217;s total main sequence life, the amount of time it will be happily burning hydrogen to helium in its core.  It&#8217;s about 11 billion years.  We have about, as you said, about 7.5 billion years to go.</p>
<p>Once the Sun runs out of hydrogen to burn in its core, it will burn a shell of hydrogen around that core.  In the process, it will bloat itself out and become what we call a â€œred giant starâ€.  It&#8217;s not too huge at this point.  It&#8217;s big, but the Earth is probably okay.</p>
<p>Then it&#8217;s going to go through other phases.  It will actually ignite helium in its core and become what we call a horizontal branch star.  So, it stays the red giant for about 1.3 billion years and then it burns helium after that as a horizontal branch star for about a hundred million years.</p>
<p>Then it becomes what we call an asymptotic giant branch star.  This is a star like what the Mira of red variable stars are.  It only spends about 20 million years in this stage.  But it&#8217;s huge.  This is where we have to start worrying because a lot of crazy stuff is going to happen.</p>
<p>The Sun, as it gets old, can&#8217;t hold onto its atmosphere very well. It&#8217;s going to be blowing its atmosphere out.  Before it dies, the Sun will actually shrink to almost half of the size that it was when it was born.  As it&#8217;s blasting this material out, the orbits of the planets are going to get a little bit bigger and bigger because they&#8217;re not going to be held on to as tightly by the mass of the Sun which is diminishing.  The Sun&#8217;s mass actually gets to be less mass.</p>
<p>So even though it is big, gravitationally all we care about is where its center is and where the center of the Earth is.  When that mass gets less and less because of this mass loss, this wind that is blowing material out, that amount of mass yanking on the planet Earth gets less and so we drift further and further away.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, I know in articles about these red giants in this phase, they lose hundreds of times the mass of the Earth every year.  That has to have an effect with the total gravity of the star itself.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> So the question that people have been trying to answer is how does this tug of war between the Earth orbiting the Sun and the Sun losing it&#8217;s grip gravitationally as it loses it mass play out as it expands.</p>
<p>Does the Earth move far enough away that we don&#8217;t get eaten?  Or does the Earth stay just close enough that we get consumed by the Sun as it bloats itself out.  There are a lot of different conflicting papers.</p>
<p>The two things that are so hard to understand are:  1) what amount of mass loss is going to take place? And 2) what sorts of things might affect the size of Earth&#8217;s orbit?  For instance, there could be tidal locking where the Earth, Sun, Moon system gravitationally yanks on to one another and the Earth&#8217;s orbit gets slowed down until it is actually on a smaller orbit when you start taking into consideration things like angular momentum.  This tidal drag, this slowing down due to tidal affects, could shrink Earth&#8217;s orbit just enough comparatively that we get eaten.  That&#8217;s what some of the latest models are showing.  But just a year ago the models were showing no, we&#8217;re fine.</p>
<p>I think this is something that&#8217;s not going to be settled for a long time because different stars do different things and it&#8217;s hard to predict exactly what our little star is going to choose to do.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Even if it survives, the amount of damage is just immense.  The Sun is gigantic; it&#8217;s giving off tremendous amounts of heat.  The Earth may be able to survive.  But it&#8217;s not far away from the Sun in the best case.  It&#8217;s inside the Sun&#8217;s envelope in the worst case.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah.  We&#8217;re going to be that burnt biscuit that someone forgot to take out of the oven.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, even that microbial life deep under the surface is going to be really wondering if it should have moved a long time ago.  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And so the future for our planet is well, we either get eaten, which could be kinda cool.  You can imagine human beings have moved on somewhere else and we&#8217;re looking back at our Sun and the moment the Earth gets eaten, the Sun chooses to do something kind of cool.  That might be nice.</p>
<p>Or it could be that we&#8217;re left behind as a crispy nugget of former planet.  That can also be kind of cool.  You can imagine future humans should we choose to survive as a race coming back through the Solar System and pointing out the burnt out rock and pointing out â€œthat used to be the home of all humanity.â€</p>
<p>Sort of like nowadays you can walk through parts of England and Scotland and go â€œthat rock used to be part of the Roman Wall.â€  The Roman Wall is not really there so much in all the areas but the rocks are.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Now, is there any way to prevent this?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> No.  It&#8217;s a star.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, I know.  I guess you can&#8217;t prevent the star itself, but is there a way to prevent the cooking of the planet?  [Laughter]  I mean like one of these Solar System engineering projects might be possible.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> There is always the idea that you go out, grab yourself a whole bunch of metallic asteroids and you mill them in space and make a giant sunshield.  Then you might be able to prevent the planet from getting over-heated and the oceans from evaporating.  But, once the star starts to get into the asymptotic giant branch phase and things like that, it&#8217;s going to cool off but it&#8217;s blasting so much energy out that you have to wonder if there are enough asteroids out there to build a big enough solar shield to prevent our planet from getting crispied.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Didn&#8217;t you say that there would the habitable zone would move out so far that places would start turning into liquid water.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Like moons of Jupiter and Saturn, right?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> As the Sun starts giving off significantly more luminosity, admittedly at much cooler temperatures, its total output will increase as it becomes a horizontal branch star.  Yeah, we&#8217;re going to start doing things like melting the moons of Jupiter which is kinda cool to think about.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Except for Jupiter&#8217;s terrible radiation.  This is all hopeless. [Laughter] This is all pointless, I mean, you know its funny how you search for little glimmers of hope.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah, other Solar Systems.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> All this will be destroyed, the oceans will boil away, and the Sun will have consumed Mercury and Venus, possibly the Earth.  But, maybe, just maybe incelladus will take over be kind of slushy.  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> We all go live on Titan?  [Laughter]  It will melt, it will be no more.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> All right.  And then what will happen to the Sun?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, so eventually, the Sun is going to become what is called a planetary nebula and a white dwarf.  So what happens is the outer atmosphere of the star pops off, floats away, becomes a pretty nebula and the core of the star, the part that fused into helium, the part that perhaps fused into carbon, that inner core is going to be a white dwarf.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s no longer going to be generating any of its own energy. It&#8217;s just going to be sitting there going â€œI&#8217;m hot, wait, I&#8217;m not hot anymore, I&#8217;m getting cold.â€</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right, the star has ceased fusion and now whatever is left just starts to cool down like when you take a pie out of the oven and put it on the counter.  Any warmth you are getting from the pie is just it cooling down.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And so we&#8217;re going to get to sit back and watch from another Star System the white dwarf that was the Sun slowly cooling off and slowly cooling off.  Perhaps over several hundred billion years, perhaps over a trillion years, we&#8217;re still working out the details of white dwarf cooling.  The white dwarf is going to cool off such that it is the same temperature as the background radiation of the Universe.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just a rock; a really dense rock.  It is perhaps the largest diamond known if it&#8217;s a carbon white dwarf.  Our Sun is not going to become a solid carbon white dwarf, but it&#8217;s just going to be this dead thing after enough time.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right.  They call that a black dwarf, right?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah.  Now what&#8217;s kinda cool though is for about 10,000 years, this hot white dwarf is going to be surrounded by beautiful nebula.  Think of the Ring Nebula.  Our own Sun could form a future Ring Nebula and for about 10,000 that gas is going to be close and glowing, beautifully lit up.</p>
<p>Over time though, it&#8217;s going to float off and eventually it will get consumed and recycled and used to make future generations of stars.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Then what will happen to the planets?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Well, they will keep orbiting the white dwarf and they will be sad and cold.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> But would they be able to orbit the white dwarf forever?  I mean like a billion or a trillion years?  Is there some point where they just have tiny interactions and they eventually just get flung out of the Solar System or smashed into the star?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> The real question is â€œWhat are the future orbital interactions that our Solar System is going to have with other stars?â€  If our Sun existed in complete isolation where it was just our Solar System and no other stars to interact with then the much smaller Sun could still hold on to the planets and everything would just orbit at a different distance.</p>
<p>But, because we do live in a galaxy with other stars and our galaxy over time is going to get bigger as it collides with other galaxies and consumes their stars, this leads to the potential for all sorts of interactions.  You could get perhaps a two-body interaction where two stars interact and their gravitational interactions fling some planets off, suck some planets in, perhaps exchange planets between the two stars.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t know what angles, masses or velocities are going to be involved in these potential possible futures.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> The time could be so long.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> And time is so long that anything could happen.  It&#8217;s just a matter of what chooses to happen first.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right.  I mean isn&#8217;t it almost inevitable then, given enough timeâ€¦I mean if the Universe has only been around for 13 billion years, 13.7 billion years [Laughter].  But if you look ahead a trillion years to the time that the Sun has cooled down to a black dwarf, the chances of it keeping its planets must be super remote.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> It&#8217;s not super remote.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Oh really?</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Simply because Space is mostly empty, the chances of it keeping all of its planets are somewhat lower.  It is harder to hold on to Neptune and Uranus.  They&#8217;re just a lot further out.  It&#8217;s easier for them to be grabbed and yanked away.  But, the possibility of keeping things that stay closer in is a little bit more helpful.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> And what we get is another little glimmer of hope because I know that planets have been seen forming around white dwarfs.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> That&#8217;s exactly right.  Planets have been found, and what&#8217;s really cool is by studying where you find planets around other white dwarfs it helps us understand what the possibilities of our own planet being consumed just might be.</p>
<p>So while the future isn&#8217;t hopeful if we stay in our Solar System, at least we can look out and we can see there are other white dwarfs that held onto their worlds.  So even if there is no life, there&#8217;s still the romantic hope that our planet will exist.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Right and I think then you have a much more stable situation if you can survive and you can get to the right distance from your white dwarf then you&#8217;ve got hundreds of billion years to sit around a slowly cooling down star, taking in whatever heat it&#8217;s got to be able to give off.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> This is where the realm of science fiction starts to do some of the most fascinating story work.  For instance, you can imagine a future where you take an asteroid, hollow it out, mount engines on it and you fly to where it&#8217;s safest to be, mount a wall of glass and grow a great greenhouse inside this asteroid that you&#8217;ve turned into our new, very small home.</p>
<p>You can almost see yourself being able to manually keep that asteroid of humanity someplace that you&#8217;re getting the right amount of thermal output from the Sun.  It&#8217;s kind of bleak, it&#8217;s kind of small and cramped, but it&#8217;s possible.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Yeah, I mean it&#8217;s still kind of bleak.  You&#8217;re really grasping at straws here [Laughter] with what the future prospects are.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> I&#8217;m trying to leave hope for our listeners.  I&#8217;m trying not to tell them that humanity is toast in the next 10,000 years even though it probably is.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> Well, this is completely unrelated but I think I get the impression there is this kind of psychological feeling that it would be very exciting, very ground-breaking; very frontier discovery.</p>
<p>I think it would just be hard and you&#8217;d wish there was just air and rocks and trees and the Sun and oceans [Laughter].  We just want all the stuff that makes living possible as opposed to scrambling for everything that you need to just not die.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yeah.  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> I think as you said that is the best case of a terrible inevitable scenario.  We&#8217;re kind of out of time now, but you know what the funny part is, I think this is the happy show.  [Laughter]</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Yes.  The next one gets oh so much worse.</p>
<p><strong>Fraser:</strong> The next one gets really sad. Thank you very much for taking us down this week&#8217;s road and I think we&#8217;ll talk next week about how the Universe itself ends.</p>
<p><strong>Pamela:</strong> Okay, well I will see you on that depressing topic again next week Fraser.</p>
</div>
<p><em><br />
This transcript is not an exact match to the audio file.  It has been edited for clarity.  Transcription and editing by Cindy Leonard.</em></p>
<p><em></em></div>
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<enclosure url="http://media.libsyn.com/media/astronomycast/AstroCast-080428.mp3" length="5242880" type="audio/mpeg" />
			<itunes:subtitle>This is a show we wanted to do since we started Astronomy Cast but we always thought it was too early. We wanted you to know that we&#039;re positive, happy people with enthusiasm for astronomy and the future. It&#039;s time for some sadness.</itunes:subtitle>
		<itunes:summary>This is a show we wanted to do since we started Astronomy Cast but we always thought it was too early. We wanted you to know that we&#039;re positive, happy people with enthusiasm for astronomy and the future. It&#039;s time for some sadness. It&#039;s time for a grim look to see what the future holds for the Universe. This week we stay close to home and consider the end of humanity, the Earth, the Sun, and the entire Solar System. Next week we&#039;ll extend out to the very end of the Universe.

Episode 86: The End of the Universe Part 1: The End of the Solar System</itunes:summary>
		<itunes:author>Astronomy Cast</itunes:author>
		<itunes:explicit>no</itunes:explicit>
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